Northwest In Bk

[PlayTheOdds]

Hey scab, the fact is that the governement says that the aircraft cleaners and custodians are in the same craft and class as the AMTs. AMFA's desire is to be an "aircraft mechanic only" union; they really did not want "the unskilled" with them but they had no choice.

[post="305228"][/post]​

aafsc, I could care less what the government said. The fact is that the majority of your union was replaced with a few phone calls, a few bids, and a contract. Over half of your numbers was replaced that simply. Look at what it took to replace the mechanics. Thousands of phone calls, four contract houses, dozens of outsource vendors, thousands of man-hours in training and instructors and a few hundred million dollars. AMFA is a very poor and weak union. I suggest you guys find some real representation or I will soon be living in your neighborhood.

 

[hulagirl]

To all Northwest employees,
Good luck to ALL of you.
This really stinks.

 

[aafsc]

aafsc, I could care less what the government said. The fact is that the majority of your union was replaced with a few phone calls, a few bids, and a contract. Over half of your numbers was replaced that simply. Look at what it took to replace the mechanics. Thousands of phone calls, four contract houses, dozens of outsource vendors, thousands of man-hours in training and instructors and a few hundred million dollars. AMFA is a very poor and weak union. I suggest you guys find some real representation or I will soon be living in your neighborhood.

[post="305536"][/post]​

PTO, I believe I told you before that I have never worked for NW. In your previous post, you made reference to different work groups in one union and how some groups should disassociate themselves from the others. As I said, even though they might want to, this can not be done because of NLRB rulings that determine class and craft. Given the fact that you are working under an imposed contract at NW and making less than what the NW mechanics made before the strike, I don't think you will be moving into their neighborhood; they will be moving to yours.

 

[Bob Owens]

Hey scab, the fact is that the governement says that the aircraft cleaners and custodians are in the same craft and class as the AMTs. AMFA's desire is to be an "aircraft mechanic only" union; they really did not want "the unskilled" with them but they had no choice. The aircraft cleaners and custodians are as about as welcome at AMFA as a black person  at a Klan rally. I would think that the aircraft cleaners and custodians would have wanted to stay with the IAM but they, like AMFA, had no choice in the matter.

[post="305228"][/post]​

While its true that AMFA did seek to become a mechanics only union (hence the name "Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association")that issue was settled decades ago. But to say that today they are unwelcome somehow treated badly has not been substantiated by those cleaners and custodians who are in AMFA.

However I have seen with the TWU where minority groups within Locals are treated as unwelcome interlopers within their own locals.

I've seen it with mechanics in Locals dominated by Fleet Service and I've seen it with Store's in Locals dominated by mechanics. Ive seen it with B-scalers when the A-scalers were the majority and we see it at the Presidents council where OH has the ability to have a weighted vote.

I've seen where twenty years before any other carrier the TWU allowed the company to eliminate aircraft mechanics as long as they kept someone paying dues to the TWU in place.

I saw where the TWU freely allowed the company to eliminate entire classifications of workers, often made up of very senior people and create new classifactions of low paid workers. In fact a group from JFK recently won a lawsuit against the company and the union. Thanks to their lawyer they are due to recieve hundreds of thousands of dollars.




Isnt it true that one of the reasons for the strike was the complete elimination of the cleaners and custodians?

What I find ironic is that while AFL-CIO officials blast AMFA for trying to be a union to unite the profession many of the unions that make up the AFL-CIO are structured precisely the same way such as ALPA, AFA, IBEW, etc.

The fact is ALPA only accepts pilots, but they are not criticized by the other unions. The AFA only accepts flight attendants yet they to are not branded as elitists. AMFA tried to do the same thing as ALPA and the AFA yet even the ALPA and AFA criticize AMFA.

Also, why is it that the TWU and IAM, tell their members that despite their job classifications and skills that they should all have the same benifits and pay raises but within those organizations they dont share that same philosophy as far as union officers. For example while the TWU was bringing back record concessions those same officers were not taking paycuts to their six figure salaries, in fact they gave themselves raises that far exceeded inflation. The "loaf of bread" philosophy is not a part of internal international philosophy as the spread between top paid union officers and those at the bottom of the International pay scale are as extreme as any corporation. In other words the President of the TWU collects in excess of $200,000/year while some International employees only earn $30,000, but he wil blast mechanics as being elitists for not accepting pay that is small percentage larger than other workers.

Who is the elitist? The Union Officer who gets paid 700% more than the Union office worker or the mechanic who earns 10% more than the baggage handler?

 

[Emil.Howes]

How is my post racist? I said nothing negative or insulting about black people. All one has to is look at video footage on TV of a Klan rally. It is clear from the Klan "language" that they dislike blacks (along with Jews, Catholics, and many others). In their minds they are the "master race". It is also clear from AMFA's "language" at organizing drives thru the decades that they wanted to be an "aircraft mechanics only" organization but the government pi$$ed in their wheaties when they ruled that cleaners and custodians MUST be included into their craft and class. I seem to recall ramp service people being called "ramp apes", "knuckle draggers" and "scum" by many AMFA AMTs. They also said they were overpaid, riding their coattails, and holding them back. If that is what they think of people who load planes, what do they really think of people who mop floors and empty the lavs. AMFA had no choice but to capitulate to the government and RELUCTANTLY represent them. And why did AMFA at UAL agree to get rid of all non-AMT positions (aircraft cleaner, custodians, fuelers, and CTs)?

[post="305510"][/post]​

Your analogy is demeaning and if you cannot see this then there is probably nothing I can say to change your opinion. Your implications and innuendo’s that AMFA will not represent ‘ALL’ AMFA Members equally is not based on fact. From my experience, AMFA is probably the most Democratic Union in existence today. Of course, we have issues from our membership as well, but the majority does not feel this way and it is the ‘majority’ that really counts. In regards to the UAL contract, the negotiating team brought back a proposal and the ‘Membership’ accepted it. Good, Bad or Indifferent, the majority rules.

-BigE

 

[Emil.Howes]

While its true that AMFA did seek to become a mechanics only union (hence the name "Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association")that issue was settled decades ago. But to say that today they are unwelcome somehow treated badly has not been substantiated by those cleaners and custodians who are in AMFA.

However I have seen with the TWU where minority groups within Locals are treated as unwelcome interlopers within their own locals.

I've seen it with mechanics in Locals dominated by Fleet Service and I've seen it with Store's in Locals dominated by mechanics. Ive seen it with B-scalers when the A-scalers were the majority and we see it at the Presidents council where OH has the ability to have a weighted vote.

I've seen where twenty years before any other carrier the TWU allowed the company to eliminate aircraft mechanics as long as they kept someone paying dues to the TWU in place.

I saw where the TWU freely allowed the company to eliminate entire classifications of workers, often made up of very senior people and create new classifactions of low paid workers. In fact a group from JFK recently won a lawsuit against the company and the union. Thanks to their lawyer they are due to recieve hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Isnt it true that one of the reasons for the strike was the complete elimination of the cleaners and custodians?

What I find ironic is that while AFL-CIO officials blast AMFA for trying to be a union to unite the profession many of the unions that make up the AFL-CIO are structured precisely the same way such as ALPA, AFA, IBEW, etc.

The fact is ALPA only accepts pilots, but they are not criticized by the other unions. The AFA only accepts flight attendants yet they to are not branded as elitists. AMFA tried to do the same thing as ALPA and the AFA yet even the ALPA and AFA criticize AMFA.

Also, why is it that the TWU and IAM, tell their members that despite their job classifications and skills that they should all have the same benifits and pay raises but within those organizations they dont share that same philosophy as far as union officers. For example while the TWU was bringing back record concessions those same officers were not taking paycuts to their six figure salaries, in fact they gave themselves raises that far exceeded inflation. The "loaf of bread" philosophy is not a part of internal international philosophy as the spread between top paid union officers and those at the bottom of the International pay scale are as extreme as any corporation. In other words the President of the TWU collects in excess of $200,000/year while some International employees only earn $30,000, but he wil blast mechanics as being elitists for not accepting pay that is small percentage larger than other workers.

Who is the elitist? The Union Officer who gets paid 700% more than the Union office worker or the mechanic who earns 10% more than the baggage handler?

[post="305700"][/post]​

Bob,

Thanks!!
You stated the situation much better than I!!!

In Solidarity,
-Emil

 

[aafsc]

While its true that AMFA did seek to become a mechanics only union (hence the name "Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association")that issue was settled decades ago. But to say that today they are unwelcome somehow treated badly has not been substantiated by those cleaners and custodians who are in AMFA.

However I have seen with the TWU where minority groups within Locals are treated as unwelcome interlopers within their own locals.

I've seen it with mechanics in Locals dominated by Fleet Service and I've seen it with Store's in Locals dominated by mechanics. Ive seen it with B-scalers when the A-scalers were the majority and we see it at the Presidents council where OH has the ability to have a weighted vote.

I've seen where twenty years before any other carrier the TWU allowed the company to eliminate aircraft mechanics as long as they kept someone paying dues to the TWU in place.

I saw where the TWU freely allowed the company to eliminate entire classifications of workers, often made up of very senior people and create new classifactions of low paid workers. In fact a group from JFK recently won a lawsuit against the company and the union. Thanks to their lawyer they are due to recieve hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Isnt it true that one of the reasons for the strike was the complete elimination of the cleaners and custodians?

What I find ironic is that while AFL-CIO officials blast AMFA for trying to be a union to unite the profession many of the unions that make up the AFL-CIO are structured precisely the same way such as ALPA, AFA, IBEW, etc.

The fact is ALPA only accepts pilots, but they are not criticized by the other unions. The AFA only accepts flight attendants yet they to are not branded as elitists. AMFA tried to do the same thing as ALPA and the AFA yet even the ALPA and AFA criticize AMFA.

Also, why is it that the TWU and IAM, tell their members that despite their job classifications and skills that they should all have the same benifits and pay raises but within those organizations they dont share that same philosophy as far as union officers. For example while the TWU was bringing back record concessions those same officers were not taking paycuts to their six figure salaries, in fact they gave themselves raises that far exceeded inflation. The "loaf of bread" philosophy is not a part of internal international philosophy as the spread between top paid union officers and those at the bottom of the International pay scale are as extreme as any corporation. In other words the President of the TWU collects in excess of $200,000/year while some International employees only earn $30,000, but he wil blast mechanics as being elitists for not accepting pay that is small percentage larger than other workers.

Who is the elitist? The Union Officer who gets paid 700% more than the Union office worker or the mechanic who earns 10% more than the baggage handler?

[post="305700"][/post]​

Bob, I agree with most of your post here. I have never said the TWU was perfect and in fact was a victim in 1992. One of the reasons AMFA gives for the strike is that they were protecting the jobs of 800 cleaners and custodians but they were also protecting, as they should, the jobs of the 2520 A@Ps that NW wants to do away with also ; leaving just 1080 A@Ps. At the last round of negotiations, AMFA agreed to the 1080 A@P number and the wage rate NW wants to pay. They could not agree on work rules and weeks of severence (I posted a link in another thread to back this up). I would not view this as so much as selling out the non-A&Ps but rather a sign AMFA's desperation.

I have no problem with an A&P only organization, like the pilots and F/As. In fact, I can't see why the government put the cleaners and custodians with the A&Ps. You would think that they have more in common with the ramp because they have no license. I think you and the rest at AA should have had the vote to go to AMFA if you wanted. But my problem with AMFA is their rhetoric when they trash talk and demean other groups and claim that they can "go it alone" and that they do not need anyone else to shut it down and then turn around and cry and complain when NW is still able to fly as the other unions go to work. If you claim to be able to shut it down all by yourself and are unable, it makes no sense to curse those who you claim that you never needed in the first place.

In closing, I more than agree with your assessment with regards to the salaries of the union officers. They should have been made to take large pay reductions just as those who pay their salaries did. Those individuals getting raises are the same ones that complain about the airline CEOs getting pay raises and bonuses when the airlines lose money and go bk. In reality, they are no different.

 

[aafsc]

Your analogy is demeaning and if you cannot see this then there is probably nothing I can say to change your opinion. Your implications and innuendo’s that AMFA will not represent ‘ALL’ AMFA Members equally is not based on fact. From my experience, AMFA is probably the most Democratic Union in existence today. Of course, we have issues from our membership as well, but the majority does not feel this way and it is the ‘majority’ that really counts. In regards to the UAL contract, the negotiating team brought back a proposal and the ‘Membership’ accepted it. Good, Bad or Indifferent, the majority rules.

-BigE

[post="305729"][/post]​

First, my analogy was not demeaning. It is about as demeaning as "about as welcome as Frank Lorenzo at a union picnic."

Second, you are right. The majority rules; I can't dispute that. But it is conveinient.

 

[NWA/AMT]

... At the last round of negotiations, AMFA agreed to the 1080 A@P number and the wage rate NW wants to pay. They could not agree on work rules and weeks of severence (I posted a link in another thread to back this up). I would not view this as so much as selling out the non-A&Ps but rather a sign AMFA's desperation....

[post="305933"][/post]​

Actually it was a negotiating position taken to prove a point - that even if AMFA agreed to virtually every NWA proposal, NWA would still find a way to avoid reaching an agreement. Up until that session, the NMB had been trying to maintain the pretense that actual negotiations were occurring but NWA's refusal to move at all from their position showed what a farce the last eight months of negotiations had been. AMFA took those things that you say they "agreed to" off the table when they left.

I have no problem with an A&P only organization, like the pilots and F/As. In fact, I can't see why the government put the cleaners and custodians with the A&Ps.

The NMB calls it a "community of interest", in that the mechanics and cleaners normally report to the M&E chain of command rather than operations, and the custodians report to the same people as the other building maintenance employees.

But my problem with AMFA is their rhetoric when they trash talk and demean other groups and claim that they can "go it alone" and that they do not need anyone else to shut it down and then turn around and cry and complain when NW is still able to fly as the other unions go to work. If you claim to be able to shut it down all by yourself and are unable, it makes no sense to curse those who you claim that you never needed in the first place.

While individual members on both sides of the issue have certainly kept the vitriol alive, I have never heard any AMFA officer "trash talk and demean other groups". After the 1993 IAM/NWA agreement and the failed IAM TA in 1998, it was clear to most of us at NWA that we were not being represented well by the IAM and we chose to change unions. For most of us it had nothing whatsoever to do with any other work groups on the property.

I have also never heard anyone from AMFA claim that we would be able to "shut it down" by striking. Indeed, every AMFA officer I have heard address the subject for the last four years has predicted that a strike by the NWA mechanics would be a long hard fight and that we needed to be as prepared as we could for that fight. The criticisms from AMFA of the other unions since the strike began have been pointing out that they face the same battle we do, but choose to pretend that they'll be able to strike a deal their members can live with. Having been in negotiations with NWA, I can tell you that this is not the case. NWA will not accept anything from any of their unions but complete capitulation.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

PTO, I believe I told you before that I have never worked for NW. In your previous post, you made reference to different work groups in one union and how some groups should disassociate themselves from the others. As I said, even though they might want to, this can not be done because of NLRB rulings that determine class and craft. Given the fact that you are working under an imposed contract at NW and making less than what the NW mechanics made before the strike, I don't think you will be moving into their neighborhood; they will be moving to yours.

[post="305624"][/post]​

Yes aafsc I am aware that you do not work for Northwest. I do have a tendency to generalize people here as working for Northwest, it is a Northwest board after all. I do apologize for any confusion this might create. I do recall you telling me about the NLRB rulings, my question now is did the mechanics separate from the IAM before or after the rulings?

 

[aafsc]

Yes aafsc I am aware that you do not work for Northwest. I do have a tendency to generalize people here as working for Northwest, it is a Northwest board after all. I do apologize for any confusion this might create. I do recall you telling me about the NLRB rulings, my question now is did the mechanics separate from the IAM before or after the rulings?

[post="305987"][/post]​

The mechanic class and craft was defined well prior to the NW mechanics and related leaving the IAM for AMFA. I don't know exactly when the ruling was made but Bob Owens states that the issue of a mechanics only union was decided decades ago. Therefore, we can infer that they decided to put cleaners and custodians in the same class and craft as the A&Ps decades ago. AMFA has been around since the 1960s. AMFA was at Ozark until TWA bought Ozark in the 1980s. The NWA AMTs and related left the IAM and went to AMFA a few years ago.

 

[AMFAMAN]

The NMB calls it a "community of interest", in that the mechanics and cleaners normally report to the M&E chain of command rather than operations, and the custodians report to the same people as the other building maintenance employees.

[post="305936"][/post]​

Except at AA where the cleaners report to fleet service, part of their seniority list, etc, etc, etc, but are added along with the un-represented dead people to a representational election eligibility list in order to stop an election.

 

[PlayTheOdds]

The mechanic class and craft was defined well prior to the NW mechanics and related leaving the IAM for AMFA. I don't know exactly when the ruling was made but Bob Owens states that the issue of a mechanics only union was decided decades ago. Therefore, we can infer that they decided to put cleaners and custodians in the same class and craft as the A&Ps decades ago. AMFA has been around since the 1960s. AMFA was at Ozark until TWA bought Ozark in the 1980s. The NWA AMTs and related left the IAM and went to AMFA a few years ago.

[post="306100"][/post]​

So the government set up the classificatons then the mechanics willingly left the IAM to join a lesser classed union (AMFA)? If this just happend a few years ago that means that the majority of the jokers that made this move are either on strike with NWA or currently working for another airline. I guess they can see the light of their ignorance. Don't you guys know that you are a product of your enviroment? You are expendable because of your association with expendables.

 

[tug_slug]

You are expendable because of your association with expendables.

[post="306910"][/post]​

If being associated with expendables makes you expendable what does that make you SCAB? Are you not expendable as well?
Love stirrin' the pot don't you SCAB?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Yes it does but that is simply by choice. All contract jobs are temp jobs. I take these jobs knowing this. When I go home and someone asks where do I work I tell them I just got laid-off. They then tell me how sorry they are. I tell them no big deal it happens all the time.