NWA vs AFA

[Bob Owens]

You asked for an example of how labor can have more protection under bankruptcy; I gave you two.

In practice they dont have more protection, in fact they have less because the court seems to think that they have the right to conficate proprty into the future and not just write off at risk credit.

(P.S. Life is not fair.)

But the law is supposed to be. If not then people are morally right to disobey it.

By name, no, because I have not been following NW's unsecured creditors very closely. But the companies on the USC are owed money by NW and/or expect to lose a lot due to dealings with NW.

Arent the unions on the USC?

Eh? They have money owed to them but it doesn't mean they haven't been paid or lost anything? Which is it?

Both. It depends on what the terms of payment are. If the payments are up to date but there is still a balance then they may have money owed to them but still have not lost anything.

So apparently your position is indeed that unsecured creditors don't get hurt in a bankruptcy filing.

No, thats not what I said. I said who has been stiffed in this case at NWA? Who has been told, other than workers, that they must continue to provide their product at terms that they did not agree to?

Yes, and I have agreed with you before on this point, that in some ways labor has it worse off than creditors.

Labor is a creditor.Thats why they are part of the USC.

Rememeber the point I have been trying to make that labor and other contracts are treated differently in BK? Sometimes that benefits labor; sometimes it does not.

OK but lets go back to why 1113 was put in place. When Continental used BK to throw out the contracts Labor balked at it and the government responded with 1113. The intent, the selling point, was that it would give labor contracts more protection and prevent companies from using BK as a maens to bust labor contracts, obviosly the courts no longer look at it that way.

OK so sect 1113 did not live up to its promise, but that still doesnt change anything as far as the right to strike which is not covered under the BK code because its covered under the RLA. On the issue of strikes and labors reaction to an abrogated contract, the sect 1113 is silent, just as its silent as to how other creditors can react to an abrogated agreement because the established fact is that if there is no consentual agreement both parties have the right to withdraw.

 

[Bob Owens]

You don't know what you're talking about there, Bob.

I now work for a company who was an unsecured creditor of several bankruptcies (including at least two airlines), and has had to write off close to $1M in the past five years.

A nameless company, did they lose anything at NWA? Still waiting for an example where somebody other than labor is forced to do business with NWA under terms that they did not agree to. To claim that every day they show up for work they are agreeing to those new terms is a lie-the court order prevents them from striking and since they are in a union they cannot accept individual terms,they have to abide by what the membership ratifies.

Most of that was unpaid invoices for services provided prior to filing, and to a lesser extent, for services provided after filing for which we never received payment because the filing was converted to a liquidation.

Once again. the issue is whether anyone else is forced to adhere to a contract that they did not agree to into the future.

To say that we didn't lose anything is pure crap, Bob.

Who is "we" and what did you lose at NWA and are you being forced to still provide services without a consentual contract?

We paid our employees for the services they provided to the bankrupt customer, but were never able to collect on the invoices.

Thats right, and its a risk that you should have calculated into place when you set your prices and set your terms of payment, which if not met should have covered the fact that you could terminate delivery, and/or reposess your property if not complied with.

What little we received in the settlement didn't even cover the interest paid out on a line of credit to make up for the cashflow interruption.

This happened at NWA? Besides it seems like you are referring to C-7, liquidation here.So are you talking about C-11 or C-7?

When America West filed for bankruptcy in the 90's, there was a ripple effect on several local companies in PHX whose primary revenue source was HP. Sure, it was a poor business decision on their part to put their eggs all in one basket, but the fact still remains that as unsecured creditors, they had no leverage to bargain with, and the loss of 90 days worth of revenue was enough to force them to go out of business.

Where thein lies the difference, poor management decisions. Labor, unlike other business can only sell their time, which is limited to 24 hours a day, even less of which is truly marketable, to one company at a time, whereas a corporation can supply many consumers with their product simultaneously.

This same situation has probably occurred in just about every airline bankruptcy filing.

Did it happen at NWA?

So, you can go off about how unsecured creditors don't lose anything, but tell that to the employees who were put out of work because of someone else's bankruptcy filing.

The fact is the same thing can and does happen to such workers if the airline simply chooses not to renew the contract.

Still waiting for the list of NWA creditors who not only lost what they were owede but were forced to continue to provide NWA with their product under unfavorable terms that were imposed upon them by the court.

 

[eolesen]

Why bother, Bob? You'll just claim that they didn't actually lose anything or that it was their fault for doing business with NWA.

But here's the list of the top 100 unsecured creditors, and yes, my new employer is on the list, since you're so concerned about whether or not I have a stake in things...

Entity Nature of Claim Claim Amount
------ --------------- ------------
U.S. Bank National Notes - 10% Sr. $300,000,000
Association Notes Due 2009
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 9.875% Sr. $300,000,000
Association Notes Due 2007
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 8.875% Sr. $270,027,000
Association Notes Due 2006
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 7.625% $225,000,000
Association Convertible Sr.
Attn: Donald Smith Notes Due 2023
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561


State Street Bank & Trust Series C Preferred $211,684,707
Company (held for non-
200 Newport Avenue, Q3N qualified trusts
North Quincy, MA 02171 for ground employees
and flight attendants
and other employees)

U.S. Bank National Notes - 7.875% Sr. $200,000,000
Association Notes Due 2008
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 6.625% $150,000,000
Association Convertible Sr.
Attn: Donald Smith Notes Due 2023
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 9.5% Sr. $142,500,000
Association Quarterly Interest
Attn: Donald Smith Bonds Due 2039
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

U.S. Bank National Notes - 8.7% Sr. $100,000,000
Association Notes Due 2007
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

State Street Bank & Trust Series C Preferred $64,770,008
Company (held for non-
200 Newport Avenue, Q3N qualified trusts
North Quincy, MA 02171 for ground employees
and flight attendants
and other employees)

Koninklijke Luchtvaart Alliance Partner $64,121,983
Maatschappij N.V. (KLM)
Attn: Peter Schelvis
SVP Finance & Control
P.O. Box 7700
1117 Z1 Schiphol Airport
The Netherlands

Pinnacle Airlines Inc. Regional Carrier $28,050,539
1689 Nonconnah Parkway
Suite 111
Memphis, TN 38132
Tel: (901) 348-4100

Mesaba Aviation Inc. Regional Carrier $23,128,832
1000 Blue Gentian Road
Suite 200
Eagan, MN 55121

American Express Travel Trade Debt - $19,182,704
Related Services Company Agency Commissions
Attn: Patrick J. Corbett
VP-Supplier Management
& Procurement
2901 Wilcrest Drive
Suite 400
Houston, TX 77042
Tel: (713) 954-7615

Blue Cross Blue Shield Insurance - $18,370,278
85 North Danny Thomas Blvd. Benefits
Memphis, TN 38103-2398

Worldspan Global Distribution $14,870,693
Attn: Kevin Ficco System
Vice President -
Airline Distribution &
Business Development
300 Galleria Parkway, N.W.
Atlanta, GA 30339-3196
Tel: (770) 563-7277

SNECMA Trade Debt - $13,279,733
Attn: Jean-Lin Fournereax Parts and Service
2 Boulevard du General
Martial Valin
75724 Paris, Cedex 15
France
Tel: (33) 1-6414-8460

United Healthcare Insurance - $13,203,253
P.O. Box 1459 Benefits
Minneapolis, MN 55440-1459
Tel: (800) 328-5979

Pacific Gas Turbine Center Engine Leases/ $12,025,695
7007 Consolidated Way Overhaul
San Diego, CA 92121
Tel: (858) 877-2800

Kemper Insurance Companies Insurance - $8,431,408
1 Kemper Drive Benefits
Long Grove, IL 60049-0002

Galileo International Global Distribution $8,051,006
Attn: Steven Diffley System
Group Vice President -
Supplier Services
9700 West Higgins Road
Rosemont, IL 60018
Tel: (847) 518-4047

Sabre Global Distribution $7,473,703
Attn: Todd Wallace System
Managing Director -
Airline Distribution &
Marketing
3150 Sabre Drive
MD 8311
Southlake, TX 76092
Tel: (682) 605-2689

Eurocontrol Overfly Charges $5,464,133
Rue De LA Fusee, 96
Brussels B-1130, Belgium
Tel: (32) 2729-3865

Jetran International Ltd. Spare Engine Leases $5,221,711
12400 Highway 281 North
Suite 150
San Antonio, TX 78216
Tel: (210) 495-7766

Pratt & Whitney Trade Debt - $5,050,963
400 Main Street Parts & Service
East Hartford, CT 06108
Tel: (860) 565-4321

Amsterdam Airport Schiphol Airport/ Government $4,776,601
Attn: Peter Verboom Authorities
CFO Schiphol
Postbus/P.O. Box 7501
1118 ZG Luchthaven Schiphol
The Netherlands
Tel: 011-31-20-601-2384

FINOVA Capital Corporation Spare Engine Leases $4,755,313
Attn: Jim Wifler
4800 North Scottsdale Road
Scottsdale, AZ 85251-7623
Tel: (480) 636-6728

Israel Aircraft Industries Trade Debt - $4,732,267
1700 North Moore Street Parts & Service
Suite 1210
Arlington, VA 22209

Carlson Travel Group, Inc. Agency Commissions $4,167,586
& Carlson Travel Network
Associates, Inc.
P.O. Box 96258
Chicago, IL
Tel: (612) 540-5561

Civil Aviation Airport/Government $4,129,172
Bureau of Japan Authorities
Mr. Takashi (Narita)
Administration Division
Aerodome Department
Civil Aviation Bureau
Ministry of Land
Infrastructure & Transport
2-1-3, Kasumigaseki
Chiyoda-ku
Tokyo, Japan 100-8919
Tel: 81-3-5253-8111
Fax: 81-3-5253-1658

AON Risk Services Companies Insurance - Broker $3,915,908
200 East Randolph Street
Chicago, IL 60601

U.S. Department of Homeland Airport/Government $3,895,222
Security Authorities
Washington, DC 20528

HAECO (Hong Kong Aircraft Trade Debt - $3,792,842
Engineering Company Ltd.) Engineering/
Attn: Albert C.H. Leung Maintenance
MSc., General Manager
80 South Perimeter Road
Hong Kong Internat'l Airport
Lantau, Hong Kong
Tel: (852) 2767-6694

Honeywell Trade Debt - $3,791,701
Attn: Peter M. Kreindler Parts & Service
Senior Vice President &
General Counsel
101 Columbia Road
Morristown, NJ 07962
Tel: (973) 455-2000

Amadeus Global Distribution $3,538,689
Attn: David Doctor System
Director - Airline Marketing
and Sales
Salvador De Madariaga,
Madrid, E-28027 Spain
Tel: (34) 915-820-110

Merck Insurance - $2,829,250
One Merck Drive Benefits
P.O. Nox 100
Whitehouse Station, NJ
08889-0100
Tel: (908) 423-1000

A I Leasing IV Inc. Financing/Leasing $2,603,131
593 Herndon Way
Herndon, VA 20170
Tel: (703) 834-3495

LSG Sky Chefs Trade Debt - $2,398,406
Attn: Rick Pike Catering
Global Credit & Collections
Manager
6191 North State
Highway 161
Irving, TX 75038
Tel: (972) 793-9290

Chimes Corporation Trade Debt - $2,328,330
P.O. Box 35429 Software
Newark, NJ 07193
Tel: (888) 339-2421

World Travel Partners Agency Commissions $2,238,694
1055 Lenox Park Blvd., #420
Atlanta, GA 30319
Tel: (404) 923-9442

Delta Dental Insurance - $2,020,004
Attn: Valerie Sorneson, Benefits
VP-Sales & Marketing
3560 Delta Dental Drive
Eagan, MN 55122
Tel. No: (651) 406-5901

General Electric Co. Engine Leases $1,924,111
3135 Easton Turnpike
Fairfield, CT 06828
Tel. No: (203) 373-2211

NAV Canada Overfly Charges $1,918,524
Attn: Louise Patnaude,
AR & Collections Manager
77 Metcalfe Street
Ottawa, ON K1P 5L6,
Canada
Tel. No: (613) 563-4520

Travelocity Agency Commissions $1,854,169
Attn: Simon Bramley,
Vice President
3150 Sabre Dr.
Southlake, TX 76092
Tel. No: (682) 605-2398

Hawker Pacific Aerospace Trade Debt $1,660,966
Attn: Klaus Koester
11230 Sherman Way
Sun Valley, CA 91352
Tel. No: (818) 765-6201

Affiliated Computer Service Trade Debt $1,653,591
P.O. Box 200790
Dallas, TX

Aviance UK Limited Trade Debt $1,639,306
Attn: Paul Williams,
Commercial Manager
3rd Floor, First Point,
Buckingham Gate,
Gatwick Airport
West Sussex, RH6 0NT
United Kingdom
Tel. No: 011 44 1293
502 240

CIT Group Financing/Leasing $1,604,183
Attn: Frederick E.
Wolfert
Vice President-
Commercial Finance
1 CIT Drive
Livingston, NJ 07039
Tel. No: (973) 740-5000

SITA Trade Debt $1,550,000
Attn: John Decost,
Global Account Director
3100 Cumberland Blvd.
Atlanta, GA 30339
Tel. No: (770) 612-2280

Medica Insurance - Benefits $1,525,864
P.O. Box 9310
Minneapolis, MN 55440

PEMCO World Air Services Trade Debt - Aircraft $1,471,958
Attn: Accounts Receivable Maintenance
100 Pemco Drive
Dothan, AL 36303
Tel. No: (334) 983-4571

ICTS Europe Holdings B.V. Trade Debt $1,436,795
Burg Stramanweg 102
1101 AA Amsterdam
The Netherlands

TQ3Navigant Trade Debt $1,376,589
Attn: Robert Griffith, CFO
84 Inverness Circle East
Englewood, CO 80112
Tel. No: (303) 706-0800

Wayne County Airport Airport/Government $1,307,010
Authority Authorities
Detroit Metropolitan
L. C. Smith Terminal
Mezzanine
Airport Finance
Detroit, MI 48242
Tel. No: (734) 942-3550

Goodrich Corporation Trade Debt - $1,279,419
Attn: Terrence G. Linnert Parts and Service
Executive Vice President,
Administration and
General Counsel
Four Coliseum Centre
2730 West Tyvola Rd.
Charlotte, NC 28217

Triumph Air Repair, Inc. Trade Debt $1,257,364
Attn: John B. Wright, II
Vice President-
General Counsel & Secretary
1550 Liberty Ridge Drive
Suite 100
Wayne, PA 19087
Tel. No. (610) 251-1000

Prospect Airport Services Trade Debt - $1,230,000
1900 Lee St. Terminal/Airplane
Des Plaines, IL 60018 Services
Tel. No: (847) 299-3636

Swissport USA Inc. Trade Debt - $1,211,283
45025 Aviation Drive Aviation Services
Suite 350
Dulles, VA 20166
Tel No: (703) 742-4381

AMTECH Financing/Leasing $1,202,569
8081 NW 31st St.
Miami, FL 33122
Tel. No: (305) 591-1553

Bank of America Financing/Leasing $1,163,470
Comm Fin Corp.
555 California Street
4th Floor
San Francisco, CA 94104

Vanguard Car Rental USA Trade Debt - $1,154,577
6929 North Lakewood MLT - Rental Cars
Avenue, Suite 100
Tulsa, OK 74117
Tel: (918) 401-6000

Val-Pak Direct Trade Debt $1,149,423
Attn: Gina Medlin
Marketing System
8605 Large Lake Drive
Largo, FL 33773

ASIG Aircraft Service Trade Debt $1,143,225
International Group
P.O. Box 910701
Dallas, TX 75391

Globe Ground Trade Debt $1,103,153
North America LLC
Servisair/GlobeGround
111 Great Neck Road,
Suite 600
P.O. Box 355
Great Neck, NY 11022-0355
Tel: (516) 487-8610

SIA Engineering Co. Trade Debt - $1,094,479
SIA Engineering Aircraft Maintenance
Company Hangar
31, Airline Road
Singapore 819831

Riu Hotels Riu Centre Trade Debt - $1,092,269
Calle Llaud s/n MLT - Hotels
07610-Playa de Palma,
Majorca

Cathay Kansai Trade Debt $1,065,879
Terminal Services
Company Limited
Rinku International
Logistics Center
2-21 Rinku-orai kita,
Izumisano City, Osaka
598-0048 Japan
Tel: (81)-(724)-69-4915

Gateway Travel & Tour Agency Commission $1,062,163
Suite 202
4100 Spring Valley Road
Dallas, TX 75244
Tel: (214) 960-2000

Hagemeyer Trade Debt - $1,018,467
North America Inc. Parts Supplier
P.O. Box 790405
St Louis, MO 63179-0405
Tel: (678) 746-2770
Tel: (678) 746-2400

British Airport Authorities Airport/Government $962,230
Attn: Karen Russel, Authorities
Property Asset Manager
Paul Griffith,
Managing Director
BAA Business Support
Centre Limited Invoice
To Cash Process Team
P.O. Box 3000,
Glasgow, G52 4YG
United Kingdom
Tel No: 011 44 7839 504 044

Diversified Distribution Trade Debt - $945,851
Systems Incorporated Distributor
Northwest 7940
P.O. Box 1450
Minneapolis, MN 55485

ARINC Incorporated Trade Debt - $928,345
2551 Riva Road Transportation
Annapolis, MD 21401 Communications
Tel: (800) 633-6882
Fax: (410) 573-3300

Worldwide Flight Services Trade Debt - $906,869
P.O. Box 3831 Aviation Services
Commerce Court Postal Station
Toronto, ON M5L 1K1 Canada
Tel No: (514) 636-7874

AT&T Trade Debt - $897,574
Attn: George Potter, Telecommunications
Signature Client Director
1050 West County Road
Shoreview, MN 55126
Tel No: (612) 376-5469

Mainami Trade Debt $895,204
(Mainami Kuko
Service Co. Ltd)
373 Hillcrest 4F, 1-7-8,
Moto-Akasaka
Minato-Ku, Tokyo,
107-0051 Japan
Tel: 03-3796-6633

Palace Resorts Trade Debt - $849,202
8725 NW 18th Terrace, MLT - Hotels
Suite 301
Miami, FL 33172

Shanghai Pudong Cargo Trade Debt $815,541
Terminal
Room 309, Shanghai
Pudong International
Airport Cargo Terminal
168 Suhang Road,
Shanghai Pudong
International Airport,
Shanghai 201202,
P.R. of China
Tel: 86 21 6834-1982

Mill-Run Tours, Inc. Trade Debt $805,914
12th Floor
424 Madison Avenue
New York, NY

Das Air Engineering Trade Debt $797,978
Attn: Martin Greenfield,
General Manager, Maintenance
Hangar 3, Maintenance Area 1
Perimeter Road
Southlondon Gatwick
Airportwest
Sussex, Rh6 0Lp,
United Kingdom
Tel: 011 44 1293 557 823

Jeppesen Sanderson Trade Debt $787,252
Attn: General Counsel
55 Inverness Drive East
Englewood, CO 80112-5498
Tel: (303) 799-9090

ACS Tradeone Marketing Inc. Trade Debt $787,252
Attn: Jeff Jacobson
7901 Flying Cloud Drive
Eden Prairie, MN 55344
Tel: (507) 385-5312

Alitalia Airport S.P.A. Airport/Government $766,757
Attn: Simone Mangani Authorities
Commercial & Systems,
Sales & Customer
Support Manager
Viale A. Marchette, III
00148 Rome, Italy
Tel: 011 39 06 6563 6109

Unisys Corporation Trade Debt $758,736
Attn: John F. Zimmerman
Client Executive
3199 Pilot Knob Road
Eagan, MN 55121

CIGNA Corp. Insurance $746,201
One Liberty Place Benefits
1650 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA 19192
Tel: 215-761-1000

C&H International Trade Debt $744,282
4751 Wilshire Blvd. Ste 201
Los Angeles, CA
Tel: (213) 933-2288

International Air Trade Debt $739,414
Cargo Terminal Co., Ltd.
2121 Aza Tennamino
Komaino Narita-Shi, Chiba-Ken
Japan

Thales Avionics Trade Debt- $738,350
7810 Collection Center Drive Aircraft Equipment
Chicago, IL

GS Caltex Corporation Trade Debt- $721,842
135-985 LG Kangnam Tower Fuel Services
679 Yoksam-dong
Kangnam-gu
Seoul, South Korea

Petron Corporation Trade Debt- $708,361
16800 Glendale Drive Lubricant Supplier
New Berlin, WI 53151
Tel No: (632) 886-3122

U.S. Bank National Financing/Leasing $665,295
Association
Attn: Donald Smith
1 Federal Street
Boston, MA 02110
Tel: (617) 603-6561

Detroit Metropolitan Airport Airport/ $664,920
Attn: Lester W. Robinson Government
CEO Authorities
Wayne County Airport
Authority
Detroit Metropolitan Airport
Smith Terminal -
Mezzanine Level
Detroit, MI 48242

Massachusetts Port Authority Airport/ $659,309
P.O. Box 3741 Government
Boston, MA Authorities

Orbitz Agency Commissions $656,033
200 So Wacker Ste 1900
Chicago, IL 60606-5857

Boeing Commercial Trade Debt $642,102
Airplane Group
Attn: General Counsel
Boeing World Headquarters
100 North Riverside
Chicago, Illinois 60606
Tel: (312) 544-2000

MGM Mirage Trade Debt $627,437
3600 Las Vegas
Boulevard South
Las Vegas, NV 89109
Tel: (702) 693-7120

Oks Co Ltd. KIX Airport/ $621,199
Airport Authority Government
Kansai International Airport Authorities
I-Banchi, Senshu-kuko
Kita, Izumisano-Shi
Osaka 549-8501, Japan
Tel: 81 724-22-2500

Jasco Heat Treating Inc. Trade Debt $617,010
P.O. Box 188
Fairport, NY 14450

Atlas Air Entertainment Trade Debt $577,776
410 West Arden Ave
Suite 206
Glendale, CA 91203

Abacus Distribution Trade Debt $565,918
Systems Pte.
Attn: Aileen Chan
Acct. Manager-Airline Sales
Abacus Plaza
3 Tampines Central 1, #08-01
Singapore 529540

Globe Services Trade Debt $565,000
Globe Ground Services
P.O. Box 9647
Uniondale, NY 11555

 

[AMFAMAN]

my new employer is on the list, since you're so concerned about whether or not I have a stake in things...

Looks like a pretty good place to work.

Affiliated Computer Service

 

[Bob Owens]

Why bother, Bob? You'll just claim that they didn't actually lose anything or that it was their fault for doing business with NWA.

But here's the list of the top 100 unsecured creditors, and yes, my new employer is on the list, since you're so concerned about whether or not I have a stake in things...

Did they actually lose those sums or is that simply a list of unsecured creditors? I agree if NWA liquidated that they would likely lose a lot of that but even you didnt claim that all these people lost anything did you?

So, since you are also one of the unsecured creditors, like the employees it would suit you very well to see the employees give up everything in order to prevent liquidation and a loss to your employer wouldnt it?

The fact is that everyone on that list would love to see the employees take the hit to prevent them from seeing their unsecured debt turned over in C-7 where they would get pennies on the dollar at best.

Now, once again, how many of these collectives(corporations) that have had their contracts terminated have been forced to continue to provide their services under terms that they did not agree to?

 

[eolesen]

Yes, you dumbass, it's a loss. That's the money they were expecting to receive for services or product already provided and had invoiced NWA for at the time of filing.

We (and other vendors) were most certainly forced to deliver product that had contracted for prior to the filing and not paid for. There comes a point where we could have shut them off, but we have a choice of getting even for what we're owed, or having a revenue stream for years to come.

Ultimately, those creditors who are able to renegotiate terms that cover the cost of providing their product will do so, and maintain the revenue stream. Those for whom the cost of providing their product exceeds what NWA is willing to pay will walk away.

It's really no different than labor, actually.... Those who determine that the renegotiated/imposed work rules are tolerable will stay behind, and those who determine that they can't pay their bills on what NWA is offering will be forced to walk away.

Every day you stay under a concessionary or imposed contract is another day you've consented to their terms. Likewise for the vendors who continue to serve NWA. It sucks, but the alternative is nothing, and most people will chose less of something over more of nothing.

 

[tech2101]

Yes, you dumbass, it's a loss. That's the money they were expecting to receive for services or product already provided and had invoiced NWA for at the time of filing.

We (and other vendors) were most certainly forced to deliver product that had contracted for prior to the filing and not paid for. There comes a point where we could have shut them off, but we have a choice of getting even for what we're owed, or having a revenue stream for years to come.

Ultimately, those creditors who are able to renegotiate terms that cover the cost of providing their product will do so, and maintain the revenue stream. Those for whom the cost of providing their product exceeds what NWA is willing to pay will walk away.

It's really no different than labor, actually.... Those who determine that the renegotiated/imposed work rules are tolerable will stay behind, and those who determine that they can't pay their bills on what NWA is offering will be forced to walk away.

Every day you stay under a concessionary or imposed contract is another day you've consented to their terms. Likewise for the vendors who continue to serve NWA. It sucks, but the alternative is nothing, and most people will chose less of something over more of nothing.

"Yes, you dumbass, it's a loss. That's the money they were expecting to receive for services or product already provided and had invoiced NWA for at the time of filing."

Oh come now hAAter. Is it all that bad? :unsure: :unsure:

 

[700UW]

Bob Owens,

I know we have not seen eye to eye on things, but your posts about companies and unions in bankruptcy is spot on!

It amounts to indentured servitude if you ask me.

If the Section 1113 lets a company abrogate Airline workers should be free to strike.

It is a damn shame how the courts are screwing the employees after the company got thiers out of their hides first.

I made the decision to leave the industry and after I was at my new job for three months I am making more money then after 18 years at US.

After being in negotiations and seeing the arrogance of the executives and the loss of my pension it was enough to move on.

A lot of US employees are bailing and working for a leading Cigarette Manufacturer, damn shame that a mechanic fixing a machine that makes cigs starts out at $27 and after a year tops out at $33 and after 10 years (many of them have 15 or more at US) AMTs are only making $25 fixing airplanes.

We need a clean sweep at election time and people need to get their heads out of their rearends and realize what the heck is going on around them.

I could give two craps about gay marriage, gun control, abortion of any of the other "hot button" republican issues, people need to vote with their wallets and what will provide a stable income and be able to raise and support a family.

Time for another revolution in this country.

And Bear,

All our grievances were pre-petition claims and were not paid, that is employee pay, benefits and compensation, even termination cases. We won a $15 million Airbus Arbitration which would have been paid to the mechanic and related and up to 300 furloughed employees, only to have the judge wipe it out, so explain to me and the others who lost out on the $15 million how we got paid?

 

[Bear96]

And Bear,

All our grievances were pre-petition claims and were not paid, that is employee pay, benefits and compensation, even termination cases. We won a $15 million Airbus Arbitration which would have been paid to the mechanic and related and up to 300 furloughed employees, only to have the judge wipe it out, so explain to me and the others who lost out on the $15 million how we got paid?

I don't understand your question. Are you suggesting that I somehow indicated labor does not get screwed in BK? Please point to where I said such a thing.

I did say that employee paychecks have not bounced during U's (and other's) recent bankruptcies, which is true. But of course labor got screwed in other ways. I never claimed otherwise.

(BTW I am surprised it took you 18 years to leave a job when it apparently would have been so easy for you to go elsewhere and almost immediately make more money, as you claim, since money seems so important to you. But that is probably a topic for another thread.)

 

[700UW]

The money was not the main issue, it was putting 18 years of my life into a company, being face to face with arrogant and greedy executives and losing my pension.

They screwed all the retirees, past, present and future.

My main issue was there was no reason for me to stay, no loyalty to a company that I worked for for almost half my life.

A benefit of my new career is more money and a pension and being treated with decency and not worrying what is gonna happen next.

See I was on the Negotiating Committee and it put a real bad taste in my mouth, after the abrogation I made up my mind if it passed to improve my life and I did so.

And it did not take me 18 years to leave, it use to be a good place to work before both chapter 11s.

 

[USAguy97]

This should have the heading: Vote until you get it right. The AFL-CIO at its best.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybri...News&rpc=44

Why should NWA do anything but tell the AFA to vote again? They have already imposed their terms.

You know that the AFA Board of Directors meeting is coming up this month. I encourage everyone at NWA to contact your LEC Ps and tell them to not use your vote on Pat Friend. I have been with an AFA Carrier now for 10 years and Pat Friend has become useless and she is no longer fighting for the airlines she is only trying to fight for herself. Let me give you a little facts about her. She is making 140k+ a year. She is getting a matching 401k up to 22%. She has threatened the Flight Attendants at USAirways and didn't support them when it came to the judge throwing out their pensions. She fought like hell with UAL since she is a UAL Flight Attendant. I have seen over the years that if it isn't UAL she doesn't give a damn. Your Brothers and Sisters in PHL USAirways have been trying to recall the LECP for UnEthical doings and per the Constitution and Bylaws it says how you need to go about it. When AFA international was contacted they said Oh no that isn't how it is done. Excuse me?? Why do we have a C&B that states something when the International office makes the rules on their own. We as Union Members need to take our Union back from thie High Powered Women. She needs to understand that WE are the UNION not her! I encourage you once again to contact your Local Presidents and tell them to not use your vote on her!

 

[Bob Owens]

You know that the AFA Board of Directors meeting is coming up this month. I encourage everyone at NWA to contact your LEC Ps and tell them to not use your vote on Pat Friend. I have been with an AFA Carrier now for 10 years and Pat Friend has become useless and she is no longer fighting for the airlines she is only trying to fight for herself. Let me give you a little facts about her. She is making 140k+ a year. She is getting a matching 401k up to 22%.

I think that a complete overhaul of the labor movement in the airline industry is long overdue. The fact is that the leaders of our unions failed us, we did not fail them.

700UW, I agree and I hope that on Tuesday that the people send a message to the government by sending in alot of new faces, not that it means that things will get better for us if the Democrats take control, becauase after all even though corporations donate more to the Republican Party they still donate more than anyone else to the Democrats too. They own both parties, so dont expect "revolutionary" changes with the Democrats, it simply lets the masters know they better let up on the leesh a little or they might get bit.

 

[groundcontrol]

I've lost all track of what's going on with the f/a's. Can anyone update what's been happening?

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I've lost all track of what's going on with the f/a's. Can anyone update what's been happening?

Last I heard, they go in front of the judge this week on their appeal of the strike injunction. :unsure: