Results are out: F/A seniority Intergration team

[jalbalpa]

There is no lack of action, all you have to do is go to DeltaAFA.org or nwaAFA.org and I am sure its clearly posted on there!

may I ask what campaign?

Dignity, the Delta AFA campaign

we are just going to have to understand that life in general may not always appear fair..we either
accept the fact that some perceive it that way and others simply do not.. its basically personal views in the end, but completely understand your implication.

Yes we can accept the facts and roll-over like a dog (which is what management wants us to do) or we can step up to the challenge together and make a difference!

personally would like to see them focus on running an airline, but hey.. thats me..

Yes me too, but you know this isn't gonna happen...it didn't happen last time around!

I believe that will happen, a fair election.

Fair like the last 2 elections?

true.. but that does not necessarily mean seniority should have to wait to be addressed until well over a year..

It wont be a year, its a matter of a couple of months.

resolution, so we can all move forward.

Well I dont want to take a chance just so I can move forward...because infront of us is a wall anyways...and until the wall goes away we can't move forward anyways! The wall being the SOC.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

There is no lack of action, all you have to do is go to DeltaAFA.org or nwaAFA.org and I am sure its clearly posted on there!

By lack of action, I meant not calling the vote.

I admire your hard work, jal, but please don't shut out suggestion. If you want this campaign to be successful, AFA is going to have to think outside of the box or it's not going to happen.
AFA has perception problems with many; its own members included. I'm not saying it's warranted or not; I'm just stating a fact. You can deny it or you can accept it and work to alleviate it. It is my opinion that holding off filing for the election for more than another 4-6 weeks is only going to exacerbate them. I also hope they are working on a speedy reply to Delta's Seniority Integration Committee's recommendation from yesterday.

I am pro-contract but I also try to be as honest and objective as possible.

 

[Dignity]

Dignity, the Delta AFA campaign

Thank you

roll-over like a dog (which is what management wants us to do)

I can honestly say.. at least for myself that is never going to happen.

Fair like the last 2 elections?

they simply did not secure the number by those who chose not to vote, its really what the bottom line is when all is said and done..

It wont be a year, its a matter of a couple of months.

I hope that is the case..

Well I dont want to take a chance just so I can move forward...because infront of us is a wall anyways...and until the wall goes away we can't move forward anyways! The wall being the SOC.

sometimes you just have to take a chance in life...Sometimes you have to be willing to take a risk in order to get what you want...sitting on the sidelines waiting for the right time.. may in fact be a lot of sitting and a lot of wasted time... sometimes you have to roll the dice.. but I understand where you are coming from...I really do.

 

[BABABOOY]

I concur and I think upon the Seniority Integration's Recommendation yesterday and the company's agreement with it today, the AFA needs to go ahead and file for the election. By the time the NMB gives the timeline, I think the Pres. will have replaced Ms. Van de Water.
If they choose to drag this out too much longer, it is going to work against them, IMHO.

Wow! You finally see what I have been saying

 

[jalbalpa]

AFA will not file until after Pres. Obama appoints someone new to the NMB.

Now, we can either work with this...or keep saying we should do the election now. You can choose option 2, but be assured that option 1 is the best option and it is the option that Delta AFA has chosen.

We need to make sure that our chance for success is maximized.

We can roll the dice now because management is pushing everyone to do so, or we can file the election when we(the workers) feel it is best advantageous for us.

 

[dapoes]

Do you really want to see the same thing as 2008? DVD's in the mail, huge posters in the lounges 'give a rip don't click', and many other actions by the company to persuade f/a's not to vote?

A new NMB member will not prevent any of this. You are sadly mistaken once again. Maybe you should educate yourself on past (legal) precedents that allows companies to such things.

We will wait until Read Van de Water is replaced to ensure a fair election.

Don't feel very confident in AFA succeeding this time around are you?

 

[Dignity]

Jalbalpa

in this situation, I support unity, teamwork and of course building on the best and making it better.. in order to secure our futures. I believe in DOH in a job classification...I believe you should get it all in writing and as well focusing on ways that will advance the profession. whatever embodies these ideas I will always support...

and...designer uniforms..

(actually I was going to list that first.. but thought some might get a little bent out of shape) try wearing the same ole thing for nearly 20 years and one just may get a little excited..Woot! Woooot!

ok.. that is out of my system regarding the designer...Woot!.. aspect..

ok.. maybe not.

 

[dapoes]

I concur and I think upon the Seniority Integration's Recommendation yesterday and the company's agreement with it today, the AFA needs to go ahead and file for the election. By the time the NMB gives the timeline, I think the Pres. will have replaced Ms. Van de Water.
If they choose to drag this out too much longer, it is going to work against them, IMHO.

If the AFA feels so confident in succeeding this time, whats the worry about a new NMB member?

 

[Dignity]

By lack of action.. If you want this campaign to be successful,
is going to have to think outside of the box or it's not going to happen.
has perception problems with many; its own members included. I'm not saying it's warranted or not; I'm just stating a fact. You can deny it or you can accept it and work to alleviate it. It is my opinion that holding off filing for the election for more than another 4-6 weeks is only going to exacerbate them.

These are very valid points... its one thing to determine what is the right course, its quite another when you have to take people into consideration..each one with a different perspective..(especially the people who are the ones ultimately deciding it all)

 

[tech2101]

My two cents (which at current prices is worth about .0002 cents )

It seems to me that this thread is mixing two different issues that all f/as should be sure get addressed, but should not be mixed together--company seniority and bidding seniority.

I am really surprised to learn that NW f/as count their seniority from the first day of training. At most airlines, you aren't considered an employee until you successfully complete f/a training and go on the line. Now that shouldn't be a problem in the future if that's the way you want to do it, but in this merger where you will have to do look backs, etc to determine seniority for the merged list, it could be a problem.

For instance...
Pre-Merger: Company A counts seniority from first day of training. Company B counts training from first day on the line. Each company has a f/a whose pre-merger seniority dates are the same 1/1/1990.

During the merger: A decision is made to count both seniorities the same--1st day of training. Now Company B f/a has 5-6 weeks seniority to the Company A f/a.

Also, if the training period for the two companies is seriously different in length, would this not also disadvantage the f/a with the shorter training? My classic example is Southwest. Since they only fly one type of airplane, their training is substantially shorter than DL or NW or United where f/as have to be trained on a number of a/c. Also, at AA, f/as are only trained for domestic service initially (unlike most of the rest of you); so, they do not get trained on a/c that are used only in the International service.

As far as company seniority, I am fairly certain that it is a violation of Federal law to start your company service accrual again (for vacation length, pension credit, etc) if you change departments--unless you were classified as a temporary employee in your initial department. If you started on 1/1/1990 as a gate agent and then became a flight attendant on 1/1/1995, your company seniority for all benefits available to all other employees would remain 1/1/1990.

At NWA, I was hired as a Mechanic. I was on probation for 1040 hours or 6 months (I think that was what it was then, it was a long time ago). Some of the probation times were hours, not days, so someone could not take a month off and not prove their worthiness and still pass probation.

Your seniority day was the day you started in that position. The feeling was that you were going to pass your probation, therefore you were treated as a "whole" employee. You actually had no rights whatsoever until you passed your probation. That date was your "future" seniority date. When you passed your probation, you then actually had seniority (and union representation rights).

 

[cooper43]

Cooper! That's it! Are you out there anymore, Coop?

Yes I am still here and as I said in the past I respect the process. Now that we have gone through this process I am comfortable with the results. I just did not want to bypass our right to consider all fair options. Otherwise we may not have gotten the adjustment for 1st day of training vs. First day on the line. That is about a 5 week difference.

 

[jimntx]

At NWA, I was hired as a Mechanic. I was on probation for 1040 hours or 6 months (I think that was what it was then, it was a long time ago). Some of the probation times were hours, not days, so someone could not take a month off and not prove their worthiness and still pass probation.

Your seniority day was the day you started in that position. The feeling was that you were going to pass your probation, therefore you were treated as a "whole" employee. You actually had no rights whatsoever until you passed your probation. That date was your "future" seniority date. When you passed your probation, you then actually had seniority (and union representation rights).

I understand that part, but you were on the payroll--whether full-time or not. Flight attendants at most airlines are not paid while in training. At AA, we got "room and board", but the meals were included only if we ate in the training center cafeteria. If class ended at 4:30pm, you had to go eat dinner then before going back to the hotel, or you paid for your own dinner.

We were specifically told that we had no benefits, including travel, until we successfully completed training. For that matter we didn't even have travel benefits until we completed the 6-month probationary period. My bidding seniority date is the day after graduation when I started on the payroll at AA.

When I saw in this thread that NW f/as dated their seniority from the first day of training, it was a real surprise. NW is the only airline I know of that does that.

 

[Dignity]

When I saw in this thread that NW f/as dated their seniority from the first day of training, it was a real surprise.

It is not simply the Flight Attendants who date this..it is a mutually agreed contractual provision.. between both Flight Attendant and Company... for seniority purposes including non rev travel...seniority begins to accrue from the first day of initial however provides this training must be successful and will continue to accrue during probation periods and after..I have always believed personally that is the right thing to do, especially if someone is being paid.

just the same as we have the best recognition/scope in Section 1 in the industry..these are items that are negotiated and put into writing to protect the Flight Attendants best interest.

... unfortunately some today(for whatever reasons) are determined to throw it all out the window...all of it.

NW is the only airline I know of that does that.

it appears at least one other airline integration team agrees, based on a recommendation.

 

[Dignity]

That is about a 5 week difference.

that can also relate to being hundreds of numbers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

NW is the only airline I know of that does that.

Don't know about the FA's but PI's pilots date of hire was completion of training while US used start of training. When the PI/US merger came along, the PI pilots had their DOH adjusted to reflect start of training.

Jim