OP
- Oct 9, 2003
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- Thread Starter
- #16
Here's what happened to Frontier Airlines the last time they competed against SWA in Denver.
Southwest Going Back To Denver
- Thread starter PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH
- Start date
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My prediction:
Southwest will kill F9 and UA in DEN. Frontier will be forced to file BK and United will reduce its flights. Nobody can beat the original LCC Southwest at their own game.
Yes, DEN will have a whole different animal at that will be Southwest playing the killing game! Just look at Metrojet...gone! Just look at Song...gone! Just look at America West...gone! Just look at TED...soon to be gone! Just look at jetBlue...on the way out! Just look at Southwest...strong and making a profit!
Southwest will kill F9 and UA in DEN. Frontier will be forced to file BK and United will reduce its flights. Nobody can beat the original LCC Southwest at their own game.
Yes, DEN will have a whole different animal at that will be Southwest playing the killing game! Just look at Metrojet...gone! Just look at Song...gone! Just look at America West...gone! Just look at TED...soon to be gone! Just look at jetBlue...on the way out! Just look at Southwest...strong and making a profit!
I'm not disputing you MRFISH. I know FRONTIER is bigger than a regional. I am just responding to Princesses comments that people in other parts of this country have never heard of FRONTIER. I live in the Northeast US where FRONTIER doesn't have a presence (yet) like SOUTHWEST does. So that's where my remark was aimed.
So my comment was not demeaning in any way.
And I still think Princess works for AA.
B.O.B.,
You are so smart. How do you have such insight? Our only hope of survival is obviously having American come in and buy UAL and F9 and save the day. Now get back to your rocket science project with your buddy the princess, and leave us poor soon to be out of work folks alone.
C54Capt,
I am not wishing that you go out of business. I am just stating what Southwest has done to its competition in the past. I doubt AA will buy UA and F9. Just look at the mess Carty made buying TWA! I don't want to go through that mess again. I like both F9 and UA; great airlines. I hope that SW doesn't put you out. But, we all know that they're tough at the game the created...LCC! Did you know that SW only forks out $0.26 per passenger for in-flight service? This is another reason they make money and can dominate the LCC market.
While it pains me to great extremes to agree with Fish, the notion of SWA comming into DEN and "taking over" is comical.
1st, SWA didn't put FRNT #1 out of business, cuttroat competition from CAL and UAL did. I personally have a special place in my heart for the original FRNT. I flew my fist flight as a child on a FRNT jet. the entire jet was First Class, and the meal was Steak and Lobster. Using the name of this wonderful airline from the past was the brainchild of a money grubbing UAL scab and a few local investors. Any comparison of todays FRNT with FRNT of the past is like comparing today's Pan Am to it's namesake.
2nd. I don't fly FRNT. I never will, at any price. I personally don't think they are safe. However, the low fare passenger in Denver doesn't care about the things I care about. They like the TV. I think that at an equivilent fare, they will fly FRNT 6 days a week and twice on sundays vs SWA. For the LCC dollar, FRNT's product IS SUPERIOR. Additionally, where can you get on SWA that you can't get DIRECT on FRNT? Why would you go layover in Vegas, then Reno and Finally Boise to get to SEA when you can go DIRECT on FRNT? Meanwhile, you'll accrue milage on your FRNT FF program.
What about UAL? If you were looking for the cheapest ticket, you are already flying FRNT. You fly UAL because you want premium service (ie FC seats), or you are a MP member. Why would you forego flying FRNT and chose United now, but then when a bunch of hideously painted 737's show up with jokes as stale as the brand, no IFE, no food, and no network in DEN, you'd jump at the chance to pay just as much to fly them? GMAFB. They are serving 3 cities. Each of those cities has AT LEAST 2 other LCC carriers. (three in PHX). In each of the cities, the jets used are newer and more efficient than SWA's biggest fleet subtype. this will be a non-event.
What should FRNT and UAL do? I personally think they should play the "progressive" game. I think the Billboards should show the SWA price (the REAL price) and the price for TED and FRNT. FRNT should promote it's "hometown" status. Both should lampoon the "SWA Experience" just as Mr. Boyd has.
1st, SWA didn't put FRNT #1 out of business, cuttroat competition from CAL and UAL did. I personally have a special place in my heart for the original FRNT. I flew my fist flight as a child on a FRNT jet. the entire jet was First Class, and the meal was Steak and Lobster. Using the name of this wonderful airline from the past was the brainchild of a money grubbing UAL scab and a few local investors. Any comparison of todays FRNT with FRNT of the past is like comparing today's Pan Am to it's namesake.
2nd. I don't fly FRNT. I never will, at any price. I personally don't think they are safe. However, the low fare passenger in Denver doesn't care about the things I care about. They like the TV. I think that at an equivilent fare, they will fly FRNT 6 days a week and twice on sundays vs SWA. For the LCC dollar, FRNT's product IS SUPERIOR. Additionally, where can you get on SWA that you can't get DIRECT on FRNT? Why would you go layover in Vegas, then Reno and Finally Boise to get to SEA when you can go DIRECT on FRNT? Meanwhile, you'll accrue milage on your FRNT FF program.
What about UAL? If you were looking for the cheapest ticket, you are already flying FRNT. You fly UAL because you want premium service (ie FC seats), or you are a MP member. Why would you forego flying FRNT and chose United now, but then when a bunch of hideously painted 737's show up with jokes as stale as the brand, no IFE, no food, and no network in DEN, you'd jump at the chance to pay just as much to fly them? GMAFB. They are serving 3 cities. Each of those cities has AT LEAST 2 other LCC carriers. (three in PHX). In each of the cities, the jets used are newer and more efficient than SWA's biggest fleet subtype. this will be a non-event.
What should FRNT and UAL do? I personally think they should play the "progressive" game. I think the Billboards should show the SWA price (the REAL price) and the price for TED and FRNT. FRNT should promote it's "hometown" status. Both should lampoon the "SWA Experience" just as Mr. Boyd has.
corl737
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- Jun 13, 2005
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Frontier Airlines never "went out of business." Continental Airlines acquired Frontier, New York Air, and People Express in early 1987 to create what was then the nation's 3rd largest airline.
Without a doubt United and Frontier's products are different from what SWA offers. That's all. Not better, not worse, just different. If the "SWA Experience" is really as bad as Boyd contends, why do more people in the US rely on SWA for travel than at any other carrier?*
Through July 2005 (number of US Domestic passengers):
1 Southwest Airlines . . . 51,072,695
2 Delta Air Lines . . . . . . 47,918,110
3 American Airlines . . . . 45,648,675
(data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics.)
*Truth in posting addendum: The BTS separates American Airlines from American Eagle as well as Delta from Comair/ASA. The combination of traffic carried by affiliated carriers may have exceeded the total passenger counts of the completely independent SWA.
Without a doubt United and Frontier's products are different from what SWA offers. That's all. Not better, not worse, just different. If the "SWA Experience" is really as bad as Boyd contends, why do more people in the US rely on SWA for travel than at any other carrier?*
The same reason people drink cheap beer. It's like saying Mercedes is not better than Ford, just "differant". Sure, whatever. SWA has done well because they have typically priced every one else out of the market. The city is left with the Southwest Effect", cheap fares to Grandma's (as long as she lives in the right hick city) with the added bonus of decreased service to the business centers that are the lifeblood of the economy. Good thing for the cheap fares, they usually end up needing them.....
The same reason people drink cheap beer. It's like saying Mercedes is not better than Ford, just "differant". Sure, whatever. SWA has done well because they have typically priced every one else out of the market. The city is left with the Southwest Effect", cheap fares to Grandma's (as long as she lives in the right hick city) with the added bonus of decreased service to the business centers that are the lifeblood of the economy. Good thing for the cheap fares, they usually end up needing them.....
Bus,
I agree with your entire post with the exception of your personal opinion about F9's safety. The fact of the matter is that Frontier has a superior safety record compared to any carrier that operates out of Denver including SWA and a better safety record than the original Frontier.
As much as I like to banter on these boards and call people on their idiotic posts, I take the safety issue very seriously and can attest to the high degree of safety and impeccable safety record of Frontier Airlines.
Regards
corl737
Veteran
- Jun 13, 2005
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I hope F9 can keep their record spotless and wish nothing but the best for them. It's a great thing to have a perfect record at their current level of flying about 230 flights/day and I won't take a thing away from this accomplishment. Every day without an accident is one day for the history books.
Getting into an argument of "we're safer than they are" is nothing more than a meaningless statistical battle. As we all know, safety records are only as good as the NEXT flight allows. Even with 3,000 flights/day and no operational fatalities in its existence, SWA takes nothing for granted.
-- C
No offense, but I've seen too many FRNT jets go zipping by the deicing pit for some early morning departures after a frosty night. I've had to wait while DIA was shut down completely so an FRNT jet could do an opposite direction emergency landing (which of course I informed the pax of...they need to know the reason for the delay...). I have doubts about a company with either jets that poorly maintained, or absent that, pilots with such poor judgement.
I've also had an incompetant bafoon I know attack me at church no less about how all UAL employees are overpaid premadonnas. Although I never attacked FRNT in my rebuttle that a lot of us come with a high level of skill and experience, his repeated insistance that he personally trained many FRNT pilots convinced me that I wanted nothing to do with anyone from his "pilot mill".
Sorry, just my personal opinion. Maybe I have personal bias. I'll NEVER put my family on a FRNT jet. But then again, I won't put them on an NWA, AMR or prior to the merger, an AWA jet. I never had any doubts about DAL, UAL or U, although to be perfectly honest, I would have pulled my family off a jet piloted by no less than one of UAL's more "famous" self promoting scabs. I'll have to think about the new "LCC" though.
Your history is totally screwed up. 'Real' Frontier never competed against Herb in Denver, save for two routes: DEN to ABQ and to PHX. During Southwest's first Denver experience, from spring '83 until fall '86, DEN never had more than about a dozen flights to those two destinations. That was it.
Furthermore, WN pulled out of DEN right about the same time that FL threw in the towel.
If you want to place the blame for FL's collapse in 1986, here's the main reason:
PeoplExpress, and Donald Burr's mismanagement thereof. Perhaps you didn't know, but Burr had bought FL the previous year (along with PBA and Britt). A very bad decision, and one which caused him to sell out to Frank Lorenzo's Texas Air Corp. shortly after pulling the plug on Frontier.
Well, from a quality standpoint, lately FoMoCo has been beating the pants off of those Benzes. But then, so have most other makes...even Hyundai!
Do ya think?
I'm not going to try to convince you that your rational for choosing not to fly a particular airline is naive, but the thought prossess appears to be simple-minded. To each their own. I know pilots at every airline including your beloved United that I don't consider to be very good, I'm sure we all do. Get a grip.
Like I said, there is at least one UAL pilot who's jet I'd pull my family off of. But I stand behind my previous statement, prior to Sept 11, FRNT's seniority list was comprised of people either building time (ie INEXPERIENCED) in a hope of getting hired elsewhere, or simply put, people unable to get hired elsewhere despite "experience". If you think FRNT is now "safer" due to competant Co's being hired post 911 to keep the Capts out of the weeds, then more power to ya. As for me and my family, I'd rather drive. And I also stand behind my comment about FRNT's past propensity to avoid the De-ice pit. I was there, I saw it. A penny saved is a penny earned, right.....? So again, I won't fly FRNT for free, much less buy a ticket. Get a grip. Nobody asked you to like it. It's MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it.
corl737
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- Jun 13, 2005
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Let's think about this for a minute in the framework of Economics 101: business competition --
-- A Low Cost Carrier enters a market where none exist and prices their fares at a low but profitable rate.
-- The incumbents must either a) match the LCC dollar-for-dollar, or B) attempt to differentiate themselves in order to display a competitive product. If their products were, in fact, superior in the eyes of the marketplace, they would easily be able to maintain a respectable market share. Alas, they are viewed simply as "different" products, not commanding a premium afforded to "better" products.
-- Thus, the incumbent neither able to reduce costs to the level necessary to generate a profit at the matching fare nor to establish themselves as "worth the cost" effectively price themselves out of the market.
Our example uses SWA as the LCC entrant. In fact, any number of new LCCs could be inserted except, ironically, the carrier whose NYSE symbol is "LCC"!
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