Temporary Injunction against USAPA filed today

[Pi brat]

It's nice talking to intelligent people every so often to regain that IQ point you guys drag out of me over here.

Man, it must tough to have us drop your IQ in half! How was that sweets? ;-)

 

[mrbreeze]

Man, it must tough to have us drop your IQ in half! How was that sweets? ;-)

It's as if he is saying....." I have twice the intelligence that you do, you pea brain!"

 

[767one]

Another thing CG. We have a current culture of blame. The management bonus structure is set up with two big metrics being CASM and operational performance, right? Well, it just so happens that is where the pressure is. "Close the door, close the door, close the door! We're not waiting. Just MEL it!". When a scapegoat becomes available, everyone starts looking to push their failures onto the goat. I saw in on a recent trip, big time! I think it is a poor way to manage and ultimately will backfire, and already has, but we will see. What I see the injunction doing is really pissing off the remaining 80 to 90% of us that were already doing our jobs as we should. The other bunch was probably lost forever with LOA 93, the pension, etc.

Pi,

That is pretty much the way I see it.


Bob

 

[CallawayGolf]

This folks is CG, absent education, religion and social graces. Same line of thinking, just a different package.

What happened to you last night Snooki? Finally pass out, or did Mom say "put the iPhone away and go to bed!" :-0

If my vote counted for anything Cleary and gang would all be gone post haste. I understand the logic of letting him hang himself and USAPA with his narcissism, but I personally wouldn't do anything to to extend his term. I doubt the replacement would change course, but letting Cleary stay in power is appalling.

I support the NIC for two specific reasons. First, it is the result of mutually-agreed upon binding arbitration. If the award would have ordered the list by DOH, height, weight, shoe size, hair color, religious beliefs, or any other method, so long as it met with ALPA merger policy and the requirements call for in the TA, then I would still support it. It is the list, it was awarded, accepted and it is final.

Second, I support the list because it is the only route to a JCBA. So long as there is a single pilot that will not capitulate on the NIC in favor of something else, then no other seniority scheme will be accepted into a JCBA without a DFR. Anyone, east or west who wants a new contract should logically support the NIC. I know many don't want a JCBA with any increase in pay if it includes the NIC, but that isn't a reasonable position for USAPA to take. As the CBA they are required to negotiate in good faith to get a JCBA out for ratification. Refusing to accept the NIC for section 22 isn't good faith and they are in reality harming all pilots for refusing to do so.

Those are my points. Gain, loss, nothing. The NIC doesn't matter to me other than these two specific reasons. Others have their own reasons, but those are mine.

 

[767one]

Nah, looking at it from a realist point of view. The company is not fixing the maint issues like they used to, they are pushing them down the line, so we end up with the same write up over and over with many "resets"= delays. The company is short staffed in pilots, maint. gate and ramp= Delays. By their own admission in the injunction filing they say it....paraphrasing "injunction against not working overtime and not calling scheduling back" Well crap they have the vacation down to nothing and the days off pushed to the very minimum, what do they expect? They are in effect saying that their staffing is so bad that they cannot operate the schedule unless people pick up time on their off days.

The reserves are running 6 on 2 off or 6 on 3 off almost non stop with all nighters backed up by all day island trips then back to all night, yet they want an injunction against "fatigue calls" again, what do they expect? There are tons of valid data about body clock stress and fatigue and they run the guys in the exact opposite of what your body can do.

The weather is the weather, and the east coast gets hammered more than the west does=delays the list could go on and on.

DOH is bad for the west NIC is bad for the east, so much so that 90% of the east group I don't think cares if it ever gets worked out, most will be gone before the courtroom drama is done years down the road, and by then father time will have taken care of most of the issues due to retirements and <snicker> Growth <snicker>

Point is it does not matter if there is a "loaded gun" in form of an injunction or not pointed at them or not. the seniority issue is not getting worked out anytime soon, and only mgmt. can change the other issues listed. So why would I give one crappola about issues I cannot change? If its broke it gets written up as required by Regs. If I am too frigging tired to stay awake all night on a red eye due to going non stop for the previous 5 days I will call in instead of risk killing myself or my passengers. And with the reduced off time and vacation there is no way I am going to pick up time on off days and spend even more time away from my family.

So from a realist point of view, the injunction if it comes really does not matter one bit to me. I flew it legal before without intentionally slowing it down and will continue to do so. If they want to shoot me with the injunction gun, well so be it. I cannot control what mgmt. does to the schedule and staffing.

Amen!


Bob

 

[767one]

With your logic, it's business as usual when a loaded gun is pointed at your head. No harm so long as the trigger isn't pulled and in that very very narrow and naive context, you're right.

The gun has been pointed at our heads for years now. I'm not changing the way I do business on the aircraft. If they pull the trigger then they pull the trigger.


Bob

 

[mrbreeze]

Euorpean bed time...peace. B)

 

[luvn737s]

I know, bad to quote yourself, but wanted to add this to show why it works out that way.

We have 3400 give or take currently on the east list, In the next 5 years 753 are gone, in 7 years 1252 are gone, and in 10 years 2018 are gone. That is 3/4 of the entire east list gone in 10 years. That is movement that the bottom half of the east list would never see under NIC due to the fact that most of the east list is older than most of the west list, especially the bottom half, but they would be junior to them, thus never upgrading. I know west has retirements coming also, but no where near the numbers that the east does. So good bad or indifferent that is why most of the east list has no problem with "sucking BK rates for 5-10 years"

How many are Captains?

Do an in-depth emotion-free analysis of just how much your upgrade would be delayed by the NIC, Actually sit down with the two seniority lists and the Nic award and come up with exactly how many weeks difference we're talking about. Don't settle for generalities, figure out with the info you have, exactly what the difference is.

Then, consider the fact that not every eligible west pilot will choose to move east, and that number of weeks will shrink as well.

You are free to make your career choices on emotion and what info is fed to you from USAPA and fellow east pilots, but at least counter that with your own analysis. If you are going to give up thousands of dollars in lost wages, at least know what you gave them up for and how much you gained by delaying the NIC.

 

[Move2CLT]

Man, it must tough to have us drop your IQ in half! How was that sweets? ;-)

Dude! A+ if we were in grade school.

 

[nevergiveup]

How many are Captains?

Do an in-depth emotion-free analysis of just how much your upgrade would be delayed by the NIC, Actually sit down with the two seniority lists and the Nic award and come up with exactly how many weeks difference we're talking about. Don't settle for generalities, figure out with the info you have, exactly what the difference is.

Then, consider the fact that not every eligible west pilot will choose to move east, and that number of weeks will shrink as well.

You are free to make your career choices on emotion and what info is fed to you from USAPA and fellow east pilots, but at least counter that with your own analysis. If you are going to give up thousands of dollars in lost wages, at least know what you gave them up for and how much you gained by delaying the NIC.

Doug won't raise that rates without concessions. Steady as she goes works for me. Why does the west still cry about the East rates? You see it in every other post!

 

[Move2CLT]

It's as if he is saying....." I have twice the intelligence that you do, you pea brain!"

Awesome!!! Breeze is playing!!

 

[Keroseneuser]

How many are Captains?

Do an in-depth emotion-free analysis of just how much your upgrade would be delayed by the NIC, Actually sit down with the two seniority lists and the Nic award and come up with exactly how many weeks difference we're talking about. Don't settle for generalities, figure out with the info you have, exactly what the difference is.

Then, consider the fact that not every eligible west pilot will choose to move east, and that number of weeks will shrink as well.

You are free to make your career choices on emotion and what info is fed to you from USAPA and fellow east pilots, but at least counter that with your own analysis. If you are going to give up thousands of dollars in lost wages, at least know what you gave them up for and how much you gained by delaying the NIC.

I have looked at it emotion free and objective. And I suspect you have too otherwise you would not be trying to convince me how bad MY pay is and how many thousands of dollars that I am losing.

There are 2 ways I will vote for something with NIC in it, the first would include an obscene amount of money from the company and NIC as it stands. Which we will never see from tempe. The second would be the NIC with 10 to 15 year fences to protect each sides retirements. Which the west will never go for because they have done the same "emotion free look" at it that I did and seen the huge advantage for them.

You have the higher pay rate and better benefits, what do you care what I make? Would not have something to do with all our retirements would it? Otherwise a seniority list with fences should be just fine with you...joint contract and higher pay, and its all about the pay right?

 

[Move2CLT]

I have looked at it emotion free and objective. And I suspect you have too otherwise you would not be trying to convince me how bad MY pay is and how many thousands of dollars that I am losing.

There are 2 ways I will vote for something with NIC in it, the first would include an obscene amount of money from the company and NIC as it stands. Which we will never see from tempe. The second would be the NIC with 10 to 15 year fences to protect each sides retirements. Which the west will never go for because they have done the same "emotion free look" at it that I did and seen the huge advantage for them.

You have the higher pay rate and better benefits, what do you care what I make? Would not have something to do with all our retirements would it? Otherwise a seniority list with fences should be just fine with you...joint contract and higher pay, and its all about the pay right?

There is no entity with which to negotiate modifications to the award. With no mechanism in place there can be no fences. You can try, but it only takes one to file a DFR.

So, with that being said, the Nic is it.

That, btw, was emotion free and objective.

 

[crazystnic]

How many are Captains?

Do an in-depth emotion-free analysis of just how much your upgrade would be delayed by the NIC, Actually sit down with the two seniority lists and the Nic award and come up with exactly how many weeks difference we're talking about. Don't settle for generalities, figure out with the info you have, exactly what the difference is.

Then, consider the fact that not every eligible west pilot will choose to move east, and that number of weeks will shrink as well.

You are free to make your career choices on emotion and what info is fed to you from USAPA and fellow east pilots, but at least counter that with your own analysis. If you are going to give up thousands of dollars in lost wages, at least know what you gave them up for and how much you gained by delaying the NIC.

No sorry, waiting one day longer is Unnecessary and that is the crux of the problem.. The East FO's have been waiting too long as it is...
Not our fault... lot of bad circumstances and many bad managers of this Airline over the past 25 years... but the bottom line is your saying wait a little longer while we put your 2005 hire in front of you...

sorry that is why we are where we are and no amount of discussion on this board will fix it...
why dont' you analize it,,, because i've seen the effects fo the NIC and it' s not good for anyone on the EAST.

 

[crazystnic]

There is no entity with which to negotiate modifications to the award. With no mechanism in place there can be no fences. You can try, but it only takes one to file a DFR.

So, with that being said, the Nic is it.

That, btw, was emotion free and objective.

and I think the NIC will never be it.. so there... that was productive.