US Pilot Labor Thread 7/20-7/26

[Megasnoop]

Well, upon re-reading this thread, and the Leo suggestion, I also believe that the sun has illuminated some thinking out west, possibly inspired by the July 8 meeting where Parker basically denied rubber stamping Nic...and reasserted that the company will do whats best for the company, not draw lines in the sand, and PHX/LAS leisure markets are going to get hurt going forward in this environment.
This revelation, coupled with the inevitable agency shop rules regarding non-dues paying pilots covered by a bargaining agent and CBA have changed the tactic some...so yes, I think there's a tactical shift..."considering available options"

You got that right. Finding out now their own atorney told the court (he forgot to tell them) that the company was not required to accept the NIC, that it was only a bargaining position (he used that three times). now the latest revelation that we offered LOS at Wye River. We dodged the bullet there. That would have put 400 east pilots below Dave O'Dell for furloughs.

I'll tell you, yachtsman, reality is crashing down out there all at once. If they'd taken the Wye River deal, it might have passed and ALPO might still be here. AWAPPA is a ship lost at sea, grasping at anything to keep its membership riled up with hope of a hail mary. I wonder what the post-Mcalvena AWAPPA will be like, without their pied-piper, leading all the little children out of town and the lemmings off the cliff. Maybe some brains will finally surface out there. S

 

[EastUS]

I love your imagination. Who tells you this stuff? Or do you just make it up as you go along? For what purpose? Self justification for your actions? First off you don't even have 1800 pilots total. After furloughs, you'll be down to around 1550. Second, USAPA members total in excess of 2800+ now. With most on DCO.

So I have to ask, why put this mis-information out? Is there some point to it? Or is it just another feel good exercise hoping to justify your position? I ask again, for what purpose?

I feel that Snoop's got that one covered = "AWAPPA is a ship lost at sea, grasping at anything to keep its membership riled up with hopes of a hail mary. " Given that the company couldn't care less about Nic, and it's clear to any observers that no side "saved" the other...that neither operation would now still exist without the other..well..I'd think that the west position's inherent absurdities are becoming inreasingly difficult to "miss" out there. Propaganda naturally amps up during such times.

 

[elixir]

Yep...what happened to the illustrious leader?

Did he finally read the fine print of the lawyers writ and bail?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

.......well..I'd think that the west position's inherent absurdities are becoming increasingly difficult to "miss" out there. Propaganda naturally amps up during such times.

It just gets old after awhile. The same fabricated facts about USAPA does not make them reality. No matter how many times repeated. Maybe they will invent something new for a change.

 

[elixir]

Sad, really. That so many guys have been misled out there. It's really obvious when reading Freunds document that he knew (or felt) full well that this Nic was not set in stone...he said as much himself.
How can it be, then, that nobody out west noticed this until now?
For how long have we been fighting on this forum about what Nic actually was, and that without a CBA, it was really just another piece of paper?

Thats been the crux of multitudes of heated exchanges between East and West...did nobody bother to look it up for themselves?

Wow, that Leo/AWAPPA group certainly stirred up the west guys on incomplete data, no? I thought they all knew this by now.

Must be some tight chests out there now, that's all I can say.

 

[EastUS]

It just gets old after awhile. The same fabricated facts about USAPA does not make them reality. No matter how many times repeated. Maybe they will invent something new for a change.

Indeed...Accurate appraisal of actual circumstances can easilly elude those fiercely determined to "not see"........"Reality!!?...Whatta' Concept!!" Robin Williams.

 

[Phoenix]

Yep...what happened to the illustrious leader?

Did he finally read the fine print of the lawyers writ and bail?

So is it true that McLv resigned?


Did he do so before the "negotiating position" came to light? :huh:

 

[elixir]

So is it true that McLv resigned?


Did he do so before the "negotiating position" came to light? :huh:

Dunno, I heard it here, I think snoop mentioned it or asked Nostro...
I'm not sure we'll ever know.

 

[Busdog]

Sad, really. That so many guys have been misled out there. It's really obvious when reading Freunds document that he knew (or felt) full well that this Nic was not set in stone...he said as much himself.
How can it be, then, that nobody out west noticed this until now?
For how long have we been fighting on this forum about what Nic actually was, and that without a CBA, it was really just another piece of paper?

Thats been the crux of multitudes of heated exchanges between East and West...did nobody bother to look it up for themselves?

Wow, that Leo/AWAPPA group certainly stirred up the west guys on incomplete data, no? I thought they all knew this by now.

Must be some tight chests out there now, that's all I can say.

A quote from Parker at one of your meetings (CLT 5/7/08). "... there is a seniority award out there that you can't just ignore" . I guess his opinion about NIC is different than yours. What a suprise. You listen but you don't hear.

 

[Megasnoop]

A quote from Parker at one of your meetings (CLT 5/7/08). "... there is a seniority award out there that you can't just ignore" . I guess his opinion about NIC is different than yours. What a suprise. You listen but you don't hear.

Bus, we do listen. That was May, this is July. Now Parker is saying he won't draw a line in the sand over the NIC. I doubt if he will ignore the list. He'll use it as leverage in negotiations. After all, Freund said it was negotiable. Who am I to doubt?

Parker actually said a lot more than what you misquoted out of context. After asked the 800-pound gorilla in the room question, he answered, "Yeah, I'm in trouble on, um...Now the 2nd part, look, you know, we now have one group to negotiate with and we will negotiate in good faith, you know, the entire contract. I have to be real careful here, the Nic, you know, without gettting a whole other group of people upset...we'll negotiate the entire contract with one group of employees, understanding that there is an award out there that you just can't ignore, you know we'll take all that into consideration."
S

 

[mikey60]

One thing everyone back east must keep in mind, this group out here in PHX is the biggest bunch of cry babies I have ever come in contact with. After the Mohawk merger the saying was " the merger won't be over 'till the last 'hawk is dead" . Now just substitute Cactus.

 

[CapnCockroach]

DELETED BY MODERATOR.

Do not post copyrighted materials from another website. It is a violation of Federal copyright laws and forum rules. This column from Plane Buzz has been copied enough.

This is a double violation because the column is being discussed on this forum in another thread. Do not post duplicate material.
I might add it is also attributed correctly in the other thread--column headline plus a link to the ORIGINAL source.

 

[Megasnoop]

REAL MEN OF GENIUS

I say that because I have yet to talk to an America West pilot who has paid USAPA dues. While USAPA claims to have 5800 members, I think the number is probably closer to 3000 or less.

Ok, Cockroach. USAPA never claimed 5800 members. We stated as a fact that we represent about 5600 pilots. unless they want to get fired, they're going to pay for that representation. like it or not, USAPA represents you, even if you're not an active pilot right now, just as ALPO represented east and west pilots who refused to join.

The ad then continued,

You know, Cockroach, the issue was intimidation. The union told the company that if they didn't back off, we'd run the ad. They refused and we ran it. This isn't an ALPO paper tiger. Parker was caught flat-footed. Let's see how many heads roll on this.

As a Captain for America West and post merge the New US Airways, I have never had the company question the amount of extra fuel I choose to carry on any flight segment.
I was appalled by this new "Union'sâ€￾ attempt to bring safety into question when it is clear, based on the data collected, that this was a deliberate attempt by the pilots in question to carry and burn more fuel in an effort to influence the company to acquiesce to their contractual wishes.

Oh, I get it. They only go after East guys for adding extra fuel. And going after a senior check-airman as well? They could have just demoted him. Ever have any training courses out there for adding on 10-15 minutes extra? I've yanked gear for at least three of them. They're not union radicals by any means.

As a one time Executive Vice President of The Air Line Pilots Association I have seen and participated in my fair share of labor disputes but I have never witnessed nor would I condone using a bogus “safetyâ€￾ issue to apply leverage to a company."

That kind of narrows it down who you are. West only had one EVP ever.

As I said in a recent issue of PlaneBusiness Banter -- as we see a number of airlines link-up, or merge, and as it becomes more and more clear that the union problems involving the pilots at US Airways apparently had a major chilling effect on the airline's potential merger with United Airlines -- these guys at USAPA are only going to have themselves to blame if the airline finds itself without a dance partner going forward.

Looks like the union problems are over. We're one union now. With a contract in place, maybe Parker will again have the urge to merge. But don't kid yourself, RCockroach. That deal fell apart because two CEOs couldn't agree on who would make the landing. And BTW, the next merger, that would be ALPO to NON-ALPO. And in every ALPO contract, that means Allegheny-Mophawk. No more ALPO Merger Policy.

But this latest stunt, I have to say, takes the prize.

We're all glad you enjoyed it. BTW, are you on line? S

 

[electricjet98]

DELETED BY MODERATOR.

Do not post copyrighted materials from another website. It is a violation of Federal copyright laws and forum rules. This column from Plane Buzz has been copied enough.

This is a double violation because the column is being discussed on this forum in another thread. Do not post duplicate material.
I might add it is also attributed correctly in the other thread--column headline plus a link to the ORIGINAL source.

You have to look close Cap'n or it quickly rolls back to the next page and you don't see it!

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42511

 

[EastUS]

You have to look close Cap'n or it quickly rolls back to the next page and you don't see it!

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42511

I do appreciate your keeping this one fresh. One can always use a good laugh. Why a good laugh you ask? = The following elements:

1) "(It should be noted that not one of the 1800 former ALPA represented pilots of America West have elected to join this new union.)" That should help to make for a "sure fire" DFR action....no doubt at all...and all out there are utterly brilliant for leaving such a defined trail. Let us all know come the Fall how that's working out for everyone.

2) "Many of those segments routinely carry me and my passengers over the longest over water route in the world and as such I am very cognizant of the need for adequate fuel reserves for any contingency."Translation = This twerp flies to HI...where the major concerns are limited to winds aloft and fuel approaching ETP..and...umm..weather at destination?...I think not. It's been..well..a really long time since I last heard of snowstorms or freezing drizzle, fog, etc in Honolulu for just one..but heck..what do I know?..I'm just a vile old eastie...and this guy sounds like an true oceanic "expert" by comparison. Turn him loose on the Atlantic immediately.

3) "As a one time Executive Vice President of The Air Line Pilots Association.." Ah! = "As one who improperly believes that being some largely non-flying, bloated politician should actually have weight when discussing actual aviation"...Well..he has my sympathies for both his misplaced priorities and devalued ego....being no longer of any import to Alpa in the slightest. I'd suggest that he put his previous Alpa knee pads up on ebay..and just get over himself.

4) As for the website host/prime blogger = You've got to be joking if anyone seeks to assign any "credibility" to such drivel.

5) The last..and definately the funniest part = "As a Captain for America West.." (Which clearly, places him amongst the elite aviation pantheon of such as Lindy, Gagarin, Glenn, Sheppard, Doolittle, Richtofen, Richenbacker, Armstrong, Bong, McGuire, O'Hare, Sakai, Nishizawa, McConnell, Hartmann, Novotny, Yeager, Olds..et al..far, far too many serious Greats to even begin to list here..and certainly none to ever compare with "A Captain at America West")..."and post merge the New US Airways, I have never had the company question the amount of extra fuel I choose to carry on any flight segment." Well Golly!...If it never happened to "his Precious Majesty"..than..it "logically" follows that it never happened to anyone else. What other "enlightened perspective" could be expected from ANY "one time Executive Vice President of The Air Line Pilots Association.."

You've gotta' admit..there's much room for mirth here

PS: Should any out west be unfamiliar with any of the listed names...?...Not too worry, as they weren't taught in Mesa Basic...and there won't be any test. West folks?..You want any respect?..Start conducting yourselves as people worthy of any such. I'll afford you Professional respect within the working enviornment, due solely to my own principles...outside of that? = GROW UP...and cease making pilots everwhere ashamed of even having the remotest association with you.


You/"We" all come from an immensely, and properly Proud history of Aviation. True fact = the very last words "on earth" of an 8th AAF P51 pilot when coming out of a dive through clouds, and encountering a full Wing of the Luftwaffe Boys clinbing to attack = "Come on down!!..I've got 60 of tha' Bastards cornered!!" A later fight in 1944 produced a hyperventialating, terrified "target" that was being hit by enemy fighters..the "sympathy" from one victimized by the "stuck mike" = "Shut up and die like an Aviator!". In the recent, intitial attack into Afghan-Ville..an F15/Strike Eagle pilot noted, from having his "backseater" a Lady Weapons Officer target and release weapons = "Hey Abdul!!..You just got killed by a "Girl" Against that heritage and tradition?......we have..from your fine group = "Waaah!!!..Mommy/Daddy!/Dougie!!..I want my Nic!!'... You may rest assured that you'll also have your proper place in "history"

Allow me to quote from a Lady I do not know, and may well have never met = Sharonstoneseat: "You know folks if this type of me and my feeeeelings and undisciplined public emoting is the new breed of pilot I am not lovin' it. " I'll add my own to that = Not only am I "not lovin' it"..but..I find it utterly disgusting.

Sadly, I have seen Chapter after Chapter of YouTube videos of pilots acting badly, and I mean mobbish and screaming out there on video for public consumption.

Unfortunately, I have witnessed behavior outside of the professional code of conduct for an airline pilot.

We also have the (alleged) phone calls and the mailings and lawsuits.

And finally, for the entertainment of the entire company, we have most recently been treated to the July 8th PHX Pilot Crew News session that featured petulant teenage boys and girls, "We hate you guys" and AQP is a waste of time cause my friends aren't there. And the parental response is....don't be unproductive and be nice to each other. Not......you need to attend remedial pilot psych 101 re-evaluation or I'll Crandall your A*@.

You know folks if this type of me and my feeeeelings and undisciplined public emoting is the new breed of pilot I am not lovin' it. "

Who would..or even possibly could?