US pilot labor thread 6/28-7/4

[nycbusdriver]

And while you're researching, Tom, do go back a few pages in this thread and find the link to the USAPA/AWAPPA lawsuit...it's about 60 pages long and should be exceedingly enlightening to you regarding the battle and tactics brought by the west side of the airline.

If it's still an active link, here is the lawsuit.

Get a good handle on what was done and you can see what USAPA is dealing with here:

http://www.planebusiness.com/buzz/awausapa.pdf

And these acts were purportedly done or suggested by the west leadership. One of the defendants was the MEC chair until April 18th.

 

[elixir]

It still works, hey, Tom..check out that link from HH which is an exact copy of the lawsuit, in grizzly detail.

Do take the time to read it, then be sure to share it with your friends at DAL...

Then you'll get the picture.

http://www.kmov.com/video/topvideo-index.html?nvid=244016

Speaking of "the picture"..here's a nice video you'll enjoy too...courtesy of the west, although, they obviously deny this.

 

[LSS]

Captain Tom,


If you would like a more complete picture of how USAPA thinks that they can ignore the Nicolau award go to you tube and search for USAPA. Look at the videos titled can’t take the heat, USAPA in the desert part 4.

There are about 15 parts to the videos. They are from the one and only time that USAPA bothered to come to the largest base in the system. Since then they have sent three correspondences. The first not a welcome letter but a threat to pay up or be terminated. The second a copy of the contract section telling us to pay or be terminated. The third an estimated bill to pay or be terminated.

Enjoy the videos. I hope the link works if not just search you tube for USAPA.

Yes, Captain Tom,

By all means, take Cleardirect's advice and observe the decorum of some of those West pilots in attendance at this meeting. IMHO, if I were a west pilot, I would be thoroughly ashamed of the behavior displayed in these You Tube postings. I remain hopeful that this lack of professionalism is not indicative of the majority of the west pilots.

The west pilot group has been encouraged not only by the interim officers of USAPA but by many of the east posters on this forum to become involved and help formulate the direction of USAPA. Sadly, from what I've read, any west pilot who has been willing to step forward to give input on behalf of the west group, has been threatened by his very own fellow pilots.

USAPA has stated numerous times that they will protect everyone's flying. While DOH is the foundation upon which the new list has been formulated, it carries with it conditions and restrictions to protect everyone’s position as was brought to this merger. Notwithstanding the newly announced furloughs which no one in their right mind should be happy about, the ops are still separate and the two seniority lists are still separate, therefore the company is furloughing from each group (east and west) according to their projected needs.

The fact that Nicolau placed heavy weight on "career expectations", a west pilot with 4 years LOS was placed in front of a never furloughed 20 year pilot, which in our opinion is not only a windfall to the west, but a travesty to those east pilots so affected. Career Expectations, which can be as fleeting as a moment in time, is elusive at best, and sadly, while it may be a consideration, so should have DOH.

A pilot's "seniority" is virtually all the east pilots have left in the wake of 9-11, the industry downturns, the numerous BK filings, the termination of pensions. The east pilots are simply not willing to allow their seniority to be decimated. Period.

 

[767jetz]

Mr. 76 jetguy, would you PLEASE give it a rest?

I'm asking as nicely as I can...and I won't take 500 words to do it.

I'd be happy to. Why do you people always do this? Did you fail to notice that it wasn't me who brought up the subject yet again, but oldiebutgoody?

Did you miss this post?

That includes being a shill for BIG MONEY political machines, aka ALPA.

You're the one that can't accept being wrong. When I made my point about UAL furloughs, which will remain my opinion, I was bombarded... blah, blah,blah...

Why don't you direct your question about giving it a rest to him and the rest of the attack squad? Did THAT ever occur to you? Or are you afraid of challenging one of your own for fear of being ostracized? Try directing your frustration at the true cause of the problem. The people who can not tolerate any opinion that doesn't support their view. The ones who throw insults and names and personal attacks at anyone who doesn't agree with them. The ones who want to impose their will on everyone else, and then expect no resistance or rebuttal.

Unbelievable!

 

[exB717Flyer]

Like it or not, if what you say is true, OUR luck will run out at the Tempe Tombstone.

OUR luck ran out on April 17. The West knows it and the East will eventually.

 

[elixir]

I'd be happy to. Why do you people always do this? Did you fail to notice that it wasn't me who brought up the subject yet again, but oldiebutgoody?

Did you miss this post?


Why don't you direct your question about giving it a rest to him and the rest of the attack squad? Did THAT ever occur to you? Or are you afraid of challenging one of your own for fear of being ostracized? Try directing your frustration at the true cause of the problem. The people who can not tolerate any opinion that doesn't support their view. The ones who throw insults and names and personal attacks at anyone who doesn't agree with them. The ones who want to impose their will on everyone else, and then expect no resistance or rebuttal.

Unbelievable!

OMG... I knew it...I knew who had to have the last word...as usual. If you find it all so very disturbing...why not take up golf or something.
There's always the oh-so-quiet UAL room also.

ugh.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Welcome to the board. Unlike others on here that think they are the only ones entitled to post here. I encourage all other airline pilots to come check out what is being said and the opinions and attitudes being forwarded.

I have no problem with who comes in here to seek information, ask questions or even post up their opinions on a variety of topics. There are those that will agree with you and those that don't. Simple as that. I don't take things personally with those that disagree with me. But will offer a rebuttal if warranted. I may disagree with you or you with me. But thats the way it is.

As you can read, lots of anger. Plus the playground bully squad attacking all opposing thoughts.

Too bad sometimes this place is characterized as a "Playground". It's not. Like a west supporter said, "He will post a response" if it disagrees with his position. I feel the need to post up my opinion as appropriate. Just because I disagree with the west position most of the time, there really isn't a "Bully group" as one would want to describe. Some are just a little more fervent in their responses.

If you would like a more complete picture of how USAPA thinks that they can ignore the Nicolau award go to you tube and search for USAPA. Look at the videos titled can’t take the heat, USAPA in the desert part 4.

Scott Theuer the comm. chairman states that “the seniority list like crew meals in negotiable.â€￾ So basically USAPA thinks that the company will agree to ignore a binding arbitration in favor of simply negotiating a new list. Imagine the next merger. Why bother going to negotiations or any seniority integration method. The tyranny of the majority can simple dictate to the smaller group any list they care to manufacture.

There are about 15 parts to the videos. They are from the one and only time that USAPA bothered to come to the largest base in the system. Since then they have sent three correspondences. The first not a welcome letter but a threat to pay up or be terminated. The second a copy of the contract section telling us to pay or be terminated. The third an estimated bill to pay or be terminated.

If you have the time the videos are very interesting and explain how this fight has progressed. You may notice a lot of non-answers from USAPA. The guy in the suit. He is the lawyer also suing individual pilots here on the west.

Nice right. Not welcome the our new union. But you got served in a lawsuit by an association not two month old.

Enjoy the videos. I hope the link works if not just search you tube for USAPA.

Ah yes. The infamous edited videos from the west. Lets see, when USAPA made the roadshow presentation we were in the middle of the campaign searching for votes. Didn't expect to get many from the west, the effort was there and the reception was about what was expected. The campaign is over, the election completed, ALPA lost.

The effort to sway opinion using such tripe is most enlightening. What is really interesting, even today, is a lot of our detractors still have a hard time differentiating between USAPA and ALPA. Most likely the lines are blurred on purpose to conveniently back up a premise or position. Much like many of the questions in the videos. It didn't work then, it's not working now. Most see it for what it is.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

OUR luck ran out on April 17. The West knows it and the East will eventually.

From my point of view. Not hardly. The best thing that ever happened was to replace ALPA. Along with their failed C&BL's. Now interpreted to be "Guidelines". And good riddance!!

 

[captain tom]

Thanks for all the additional information, but I have no desire to be part of the food fight you guys are engaged in. The rhetoric and histrionics I've seen are only a sideshow; results are what matters. My interest is in seeing if you're able to set aside a binding arbitration award, and if you're able to achieve a joint contract.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Thanks for all the additional information, but I have no desire to be part of the food fight you guys are engaged in. The rhetoric and histrionics I've seen are only a sideshow; results are what matters. My interest is in seeing if you're able to set aside a binding arbitration award, and if you're able to achieve a joint contract.

We too will watch with interest how matters develop between the DAL/NWA pilot groups - potential food fight there as well.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Thanks for all the additional information, but I have no desire to be part of the food fight you guys are engaged in. The rhetoric and histrionics I've seen are only a sideshow; results are what matters. My interest is in seeing if you're able to set aside a binding arbitration award, and if you're able to achieve a joint contract.

We too will watch with interest how matters develop between the DAL/NWA pilot groups - potential food fight there as well.

,

Captain Tom-

Please let us know if/when things heat up on the NWA or DAL USAviation.com boards. I understand your interest in what is happening here, but little if any of what we accomplish, or fail to accomplish, will have much bearing on your situation. I really think our circumstance are unique. Decertifying ALPA at either NWA or DAL is likely impossible now with your merger so far along. The NMB would almost assuredly rule that, for bargaining purposes, DAL/NWA is one group. Getting 50% +1 vote to even get an election would be impossible, IMHO.

And, unfortunately, you will be burdened with the ALPA merger policy...uh, guidelines... with no recourse at all if a senile arbitrator decides to stick it to one group or the other. Assuming your tentative join contract is approved (that's a big IF, I know), if your list goes to arbitration that's the end. (As it would have been if our combined contract had been in place before Nicolau embarrassed himself.)

Good luck.

 

[767jetz]

As you can read, lots of anger. Plus the playground bully squad attacking all opposing thoughts.

100% accurate.

 

[767jetz]

I have no problem with who comes in here to seek information, ask questions or even post up their opinions on a variety of topics. There are those that will agree with you and those that don't. Simple as that. I don't take things personally with those that disagree with me. But will offer a rebuttal if warranted. I may disagree with you or you with me. But thats the way it is.

And I commend you on that. You are the one poster on this board who I can honestly say that although our position and opinions are completely opposite, I can also respect your view due to the absence of offensive posture and absence of personal attacks. I wish all of your compatriots on this site were of the same character. It would make for a much more pleasant exchange of views. Unfortunately for them, they can only be judged by their own words and actions. Your posts are just as passionate and pointed, without ever crossing the line of disrespect or personal attack.

Too bad sometimes this place is characterized as a "Playground". It's not. Like a west supporter said, "He will post a response" if it disagrees with his position. I feel the need to post up my opinion as appropriate. Just because I disagree with the west position most of the time, there really isn't a "Bully group" as one would want to describe. Some are just a little more fervent in their responses.

I agree with most of this. However IMO there is certainly a "Bully group" who I would characterize as fanatical rather than fervent. The difference is their penchant for making everything personal, and their inability to show some restraint and refrain from snide comments, name calling, provocation, personal attacks, and attempted character assassination.

 

[elixir]

And I commend you on that. You are the one poster on this board who I can honestly say that although our position and opinions are completely opposite, I can also respect your view due to the absence of offensive posture and absence of personal attacks. I wish all of your compatriots on this site were of the same character. It would make for a much more pleasant exchange of views. Unfortunately for them, they can only be judged by their own words and actions. Your posts are just as passionate and pointed, without ever crossing the line of disrespect or personal attack.



I agree with most of this. However IMO there is certainly a "Bully group" who I would characterize as fanatical rather than fervent. The difference is their penchant for making everything personal, and their inability to show some restraint and refrain from snide comments, name calling, provocation, personal attacks, and attempted character assassination.

...you must be speaking of our AWAPPA friends...agreed.

As for my postings, I'll sum it up like this: based on the preponderance of evidence of malicious and arguably criminal behavior and bullying by a West contingent, you'll excuse me as well, you see, I'm from New York as you are....and I'll not be pushed around or cowtow to it...just as you, sir. Nor shall my 2800 other East brother's...it is what it is.
As for you, I mean no personal offense, but you ARE willingly stepping into the line of fire here.

(how's that for polite?)

 

[767jetz]

(how's that for polite?)

Much better.

As for my postings, I'll sum it up like this: based on the preponderance of evidence of malicious and arguably criminal behavior and bullying by a West contingent, you'll excuse me as well, you see, I'm from New York as you are....and I'll not be pushed around or cowtow to it...just as you, sir. Nor shall my 2800 other East brother's...it is what it is.
As for you, I mean no personal offense, but you ARE willingly stepping into the line of fire here.

Fair enough. I never criticized you for standing up for what you believe. Nor would I. We can disagree, even passionately, without being offensive or making it personal. Just keep in mind that I've every right to my opinion as well. And I can be just as sure as to the inherent fairness and righteousness of my position and that of the West as you and your 2800 East brothers are of your position. In the end, the only thing that will matter is the final result. Until then there is nothing but opinions, and no real need for anyone to be in the line of fire.