US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/2- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Barrister]

Lack of ripeness does not give you a green light like seham, cleary and mowrey will have you believe.

Most would've liked to have been in on the conversatiion between parker and clearly not long ago when united was on the table. What do think was passed across the table? C of C, NIC, Delta money +. Seems seham and cleary went running to the 9th and dropping their pants so to speak after this meeting.

Seems clearly to most that usapa is just as screwed up as it was in 2008 when it was formed. I and most out west will give you all the rope and "union reasonableness" to hang yourself again.

Then ante up big boyeeeeeeeeee!!

NPJB

 

[Black Swan]

In fact if the East used the NIC, they would clearly be in violation of its Constitutional & By-Laws and could be sued by any or all East pilots or West pilots for that matter, because the Constitution protects their DOH interest too.

And if the rest of the airline merged DOH and ALPA new policy is going this direction, how are they going to argue it being unfair?How are they harmed? They are not. And if they try and bring up the Nic, they will go nowhere as it no longer has any ties to this. Stated clearly by the 9th. And then they will bring up the past saying they saved USAIR. Well, the time to take the snapshot for the list and the career standings has moved to a new day. If they try this, we can do the same and bring up their days in the trough. They have enough also. It is here and now boys, so lets' have the current data when you try to take us down again. The interesting thing is going to be if they try the en banc. If they do this, you know they are getting poor advice, again. The ripeness issue was the easiest thing to explain away. Very difficult to be the outlier in an airline that went DOH in every other category, and most past pilot integrations DOH. They are going to stand out as thinking they are entitled more than anything.

 

[OTTER574]

In fact if the East used the NIC, they would clearly be in violation of its Constitutional & By-Laws and could be sued by any or all East pilots or West pilots for that matter, because the Constitution protects their DOH interest too.

That's not what seham said in front of the 9th.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Lack of ripeness does not give you a green light like seham, cleary and mowrey will have you believe.

Most would've liked to have been in on the conversatiion between parker and clearly not long ago when united was on the table. What do think was passed across the table? C of C, NIC, Delta money +. Seems seham and cleary went running to the 9th and dropping their pants so to speak after this meeting.

Seems clearly to most that usapa is just as screwed up as it was in 2008 when it was formed. I and most out west will give you all the rope and "union reasonableness" to hang yourself again.

If they did approach anybody, it's only because the NIC gives any other company we merge with every reason to staple us to the bottom. You don't really think that a 25 year pilot at United or American, for that matter, would allow a pilot with half as much experience ahead of them in seniority, do you? If you do, you haven't been in this industry for long.

DOH of some form will protect YOUR career, as well as the east pilots'.

I'm finally proud to be a union member again! Go USAPA! Best money I've ever spent!

 

[cleardirect]

The judge specifically said it applied to both East and West, not just West as you allude. Read it again. It did not just mention West. So it gives the green light for the EAST to be treated fairly, and that means not putting Joe Monda under a new hire.

Dave Odell junior reserve pilot at AWA one number from furlough. Monda junior reserve pilot at AAA one number from furlough.

Where should he be? Senior to 743 west captains and 1509 total west pilots? Explain that to a jury. Oh wait you already explained it an arbitrator and he decided that junior reserve means junior reserve not line holding captain.

We agreed to let a third party decide what was fair. The east pilots don’t get to decide what is fair then impose it on the west. That is the entire point of DFR. The majority does not get to steal from the minority. If you would like to set that precedent then be careful in the next merger because we will be the smaller group.

 

[Black Swan]

that reason being, the union is typically not guilty, and if it is or may feel it appears to be, it settles.

But it is actually very easy to win a DFR suit when the union is usapa. The, we are stupid enough to completely document our illegal campaign, union.

Pass anything other than the Nic, change my seniority number by 1 from the Nic, much less the way over a thousand usapa proposes, and it will be easy to win again.

Your and your cohorts understanding of the RLA and what the 9th came out with is so bad. How can you still insist the Nic has to be in it? You lose all credibility when you say this. Seriously, did you even read the papers from the 9th? You guys never understood the ripeness issue, so I guess this is understandable. Do yourself a favor. Read Baptiste and Wilder. Best writings on this entire case. Especially about Wake. You are not going to like that one, but he had him dead to rights. Give me your explanation of how the Nic is FAIR to an East pilot.

 

[ROACLT]

Lack of ripeness does not give you a green light like seham, cleary and mowrey will have you believe.

Most would've liked to have been in on the conversatiion between parker and clearly not long ago when united was on the table. What do think was passed across the table? C of C, NIC, Delta money +. Seems seham and cleary went running to the 9th and dropping their pants so to speak after this meeting.

Seems clearly to most that usapa is just as screwed up as it was in 2008 when it was formed. I and most out west will give you all the rope and "union reasonableness" to hang yourself again.

Go back and read the ruling, the footnotes and please educate yourself on the broadness of breach of "good faith", a definition Wake denied the jury from hearing in the circuit trial.

I think itwould seem to USAPA supporters that the ability of their attorney's to understand the law and a union's right to bargain without interference was just validated and the confidence level is higher than ever. I think it will be only strengthened when you realize and hear how your company's management weighs in on the issue.

This ruling blew the case and the way the trail went down in Phoenix out of the water and only by addressing the jurisdictional aspect of the case. One could infer, if Wake was wrong on complaint 1, the other 3 or 4 complaints in USAPA appeal likely had merit too. They weren't addressed because, there was no legal jurisdiction for this case to be heard in the first place but I wouldn't be to confident on anything that came out of the trial before Wake.

The 9th Circuit is clear that USAPA is able to bargain without interference and their only requirement is to bargain in good faith for all of its members. Again, before you waste any more money, I would study up on that issue as it relates to union responsibility.

There is a reason the majority decision referred to the Nicalou award as nothing more that a step in an internal union process to achieve a "seniority proposal". One that it correctly states, ALPA could not complete or reconcile the parties over and tried itself to modify.

Unions have broad discretion in interpreting their own policies and by-laws and a very broad latitude when it comes to acting reasonably in the context of needing to act for "collective interest."

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I think that the 9th ruled on ripeness only because that's all the appeal specified. It was also the simplest, most obvious error. It's clear that rulings on other issues would have favored the East as well, but were not "officially" part of the appeal. In fact, the Judges of the 9th didn't even have to address them, but they did. I'm thinking that they did this as a favor to the west, allowing them to stop this foolishness now, and not waste more time and money on it.

It can take YEARS to get an en banc appeal heard, if it's even allowed in the first place. There has to be some kind of important, immediate precedent at stake, and I just don't see one here. This case was so obviously not ripe that I don't know what Judge Wake was thinking, but he was certainly out to crucify the East lawyers.

 

[cleardirect]

Go back and read the ruling, the footnotes and please educate yourself on the broadness of breach of "good faith", a definition Wake denied the jury from hearing in the circuit trial.

I think itwould seem to USAPA supporters that the ability of their attorney's to understand the law and a union's right to bargain without interference was just validated and the confidence level is higher than ever. I think it will be only strengthened when you realize and hear how your company's management weighs in on the issue.

This ruling blew the case and the way the trail went down in Phoenix out of the water and only by addressing the jurisdictional aspect of the case. One could infer, if Wake was wrong on complaint 1, the other 3 or 4 complaints in USAPA appeal likely had merit too. They weren't addressed because, there was no legal jurisdiction for this case to be heard in the first place but I wouldn't be to confident on anything that came out of the trial before Wake.

The 9th Circuit is clear that USAPA is able to bargain without interference and their only requirement is to bargain in good faith for all of its members. Again, before you waste any more money, I would study up on that issue as it relates to union responsibility.

There is a reason the majority decision referred to the Nicalou award as nothing more that a step in an internal union process to achieve a "seniority proposal". One that it correctly states, ALPA could not complete or reconcile the parties over and tried itself to modify.

Unions have broad discretion in interpreting their own policies and by-laws and a very broad latitude when it comes to acting reasonably in the context of needing to act for "collective interest."

Why all of the concern about how much money we spend? It is our money if we choose to send it to the lawyers we do so of our own free will. Unlike the usapa dues that we are forced to pay.

Are you guys worried that we may get a reversal? Otherwise don't worry about it it is our money.

It you all believe that usapa is going to get you DOH go for it. Let's see that TA in the next 90 days. Is usapa capable of delivering that? Let's see what the company does. Will Parker live up to his word or will he act like and east pilot?

 

[ROACLT]

Dave Odell junior reserve pilot at AWA one number from furlough. Monda junior reserve pilot at AAA one number from furlough.

Where should he be? Senior to 743 west captains and 1509 total west pilots? Explain that to a jury. Oh wait you already explained it an arbitrator and he decided that junior reserve means junior reserve not line holding captain.

We agreed to let a third party decide what was fair. The east pilots don’t get to decide what is fair then impose it on the west. That is the entire point of DFR. The majority does not get to steal from the minority. If you would like to set that precedent then be careful in the next merger because we will be the smaller group.

The next merger, assuming it is American, Delta, or United will be via Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's. If there is an arbitration it will be required by the Mcaskill-Bond legislation and will have the weight of federal law behind it. It will not be tied to any union or any union process and any and all arguments can be made including merger history within the individual airline. Unlike ALPA's process, that didn't allow reference to the US-Piedmont, US-PSA, Allegheny-Mohawk, Allegheny-Lake Central, because the union had struck language out of its policy giving preference to DOH.

What is interesting about the Allegheny-Mohawk merger is that it went via DOH/LOS even though at the time of the integration Mohawk was in bankruptcy and completely ceased operation. Even still, the CAB found that integration still had to be done in an equitable manner which was DOH/LOS and that and other history will be usable in an arbitration required by Mccaskill-Bond, unlike the weak nebulous criteria in ALPA's internal union policy.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Why all of the concern about how much money we spend? It is our money if we choose to send it to the lawyers we do so of our own free will. Unlike the usapa dues that we are forced to pay.

Are you guys worried that we may get a reversal? Otherwise don't worry about it it is our money.

It you all believe that usapa is going to get you DOH go for it. Let's see that TA in the next 90 days. Is usapa capable of delivering that? Let's see what the company does. Will Parker live up to his word or will he act like and east pilot?

Not worried at all. Just thought we'd try to help by offering some insights we have attained through more experience reflected in our higher seniority. That's all.

If you don't want it, don't take it.

 

[ROACLT]

Why all of the concern about how much money we spend? It is our money if we choose to send it to the lawyers we do so of our own free will. Unlike the usapa dues that we are forced to pay.

Are you guys worried that we may get a reversal? Otherwise don't worry about it it is our money.

It you all believe that usapa is going to get you DOH go for it. Let's see that TA in the next 90 days. Is usapa capable of delivering that? Let's see what the company does. Will Parker live up to his word or will he act like and east pilot?

Personally, I don't care and was just offering a peace of advice. I am a longshoreman and giving you the perspective of a member of a profession that has real representation, as evidenced by the fact we make more money loading and unloading ships than you do flying airplanes.

Your new union is the best thing you have going for you, because the union that has shepherded your profession the last 30 years has left it in sad shape.

 

[OTTER574]

If they did approach anybody, it's only because the NIC gives any other company we merge with every reason to staple us to the bottom. You don't really think that a 25 year pilot at United or American, for that matter, would allow a pilot with half as much experience ahead of them in seniority, do you? If you do, you haven't been in this industry for long.

DOH of some form will protect YOUR career, as well as the east pilots'.

I'm finally proud to be a union member again! Go USAPA! Best money I've ever spent!

Glad you chimed in oldiebutgoody. My voluntary donations to AOL is the best money I've spent and IS growing and counting out west. I know you like to post FUD but come on..there's gold in them thar hills when them lawyers get involved.

I've been with 3 alpa carriers handling my cba and now it's usapa turn as a cba. Hard to pick who's more f***ed up when all they do is change the sticker/name on the front door of the union office and send me bills and assessments. usapa takes the cake though on how to try and get out of a final and binding arbitration. LCC company and me says it won't happen and btw enjoy your loa93.

In all you old wisdom man....Please explain how the dal and nwa abritration went? And please explain with your great insight and expectatons of ual and cal going forward? Don't forget but please explain a federal law that prevents the likes of you/usapa/seham/bradford and apa doing what apa did to your fellow union brothers and sisters at twa?

 

[Black Swan]

Wrong,wrong and wrong again. My problem is my fellow easties are not men of there word, they are the weak of self entitled mice. It is that very self entitlement that is wrong with this country today. Usapa vs alpa samething with a new name.

Extremely suspicious poster. Tagged as west on my radar.

 

[ROACLT]

Glad you chimed in oldiebutgoody. My voluntary donations to AOL is the best money I've spent and IS growing and counting out west. I know you like to post FUD but come on..there's gold in them thar hills when them lawyers get involved.

I've been with 3 alpa carriers handling my cba and now it's usapa turn as a cba. Hard to pick who's more f***ed up when all they do is change the sticker/name on the front door of the union office and send me bills and assessments. usapa takes the cake though on how to try and get out of a final and binding arbitration. LCC company and me says it won't happen and btw enjoy your loa93.

In all you old wisdom man....Please explain how the dal and nwa abritration went? And please explain with your great insight and expectatons of ual and cal going forward? Don't forget but please explain a federal law that prevents the likes of you/usapa/seham/bradford and apa doing what apa did to your fellow union brothers and sisters at twa?

You keep referencing the company but you are in for a rude awakening the next time you get to ask a question of them regarding seniority. They will tell you that it only exists because of a union and contract and they won't interfere. I am sure like any company from a cost perspective, they really could care less if it was blonds first then browns and redheads. From a legal perspective seniority is an internal union issue. Your union leadership has probably already addressed this with management and that is exactly what they were told and what you are likely to hear and find out in the coming days.