US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Richard]

With 600 posts it's time for a new thread. Please remember to observe the rules of the board, and regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with other posters, please treat each other with respect.

Please read the rules of the board before posting.

Thank you.

 

[Pi brat]

Luvn737 wrote;

"DOH is a gimmee for the east F/O's, but there is no such gimmee for any west pilot of any seniority level (as a matter of fact the pay scale is likely to be more than woefully inadequate), so I can see no scenario where a west pilot would vote YES to a DOH contract."

I've had a west pilot tell me he would vote for it. He is very senior(he said) and sees AOLs path as a dead end. USAPA's DOH with C&R will help the very senior from having any of the 517 roll in on top of them. Maybe other west guys look at the attrition and think that it is better to roll the dice with DOH and a new contract than to keep funding lawyers with the current one. Who knows how anyone will vote? Put your money where you mouth is-stop blocking the way to a new contract and when/if one with DOH comes out, go sue again.

 

[cleardirect]

Luvn737 wrote;

"DOH is a gimmee for the east F/O's, but there is no such gimmee for any west pilot of any seniority level (as a matter of fact the pay scale is likely to be more than woefully inadequate), so I can see no scenario where a west pilot would vote YES to a DOH contract."

I've had a west pilot tell me he would vote for it. He is very senior(he said) and sees AOLs path as a dead end. USAPA's DOH with C&R will help the very senior from having any of the 517 roll in on top of them. Maybe other west guys look at the attrition and think that it is better to roll the dice with DOH and a new contract than to keep funding lawyers with the current one. Who knows how anyone will vote? Put your money where you mouth is-stop blocking the way to a new contract and when/if one with DOH comes out, go sue again.

The only thing stopping a contract is usapa.

The injunction was for the Nicolau. Not the other 29 sections. what prevented usapa from getting those done in the past 2 years?

How is it that the minority is stopping anything?

Many on here have said that the Nicolau is dead, the majority is free to do what ever you want right. Why keep asking for the west help? Present your list and let's go. The west is not stopping anything.

As far as the one senior west pilot that wants to move on. I have talked to east pilots that will accept the Nicolau and a pay raise. Does that matter? usapa is in the drivers seat. the east is the majoirity it is up to you guys to solve your problem.

usapa has not even come to the west about putting someone on the merger committee, just how serious can they be about finding a "fair" solution when the leadership will not even ask what we think is right.

Why is it that random line pilots on an web board need to do the job the union is supposed to be doing? what kind of leadership is that?

 

[Pi brat]

The only thing stopping a contract is usapa.

The injunction was for the Nicolau. Not the other 29 sections. what prevented usapa from getting those done in the past 2 years?

How is it that the minority is stopping anything?

Many on here have said that the Nicolau is dead, the majority is free to do what ever you want right. Why keep asking for the west help? Present your list and let's go. The west is not stopping anything.

As far as the one senior west pilot that wants to move on. I have talked to east pilots that will accept the Nicolau and a pay raise. Does that matter? usapa is in the drivers seat. the east is the majoirity it is up to you guys to solve your problem.

usapa has not even come to the west about putting someone on the merger committee, just how serious can they be about finding a "fair" solution when the leadership will not even ask what we think is right.

Why is it that random line pilots on an web board need to do the job the union is supposed to be doing? what kind of leadership is that?

You're right, stop was the wrong word, how about hurting? Every time a west poster says they will never support USAPA, never support the east, never support a joint contract the value goes down and the climb to a new contract gets harder. The west constantly whined about the east being so stupid as to just accept he Nic and move on, but now with loss in SFO the tone has changed.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The only thing stopping a contract is usapa.

usapa has not even come to the west about putting someone on the merger committee, just how serious can they be about finding a "fair" solution when the leadership will not even ask what we think is right.

I assume you are referring to the negotiating committee.

Only in recent months have you attained a significant number of MIGS. For a long time it was a battle just to get your side to pay dues. More recently, you were hoping for victory at the 9th. Now, at this late stage you decry the fact that the NAC has left the station without someone from the west on board?

 

[Hate2fly]

You're right, stop was the wrong word, how about hurting? Every time a west poster says they will never support USAPA, never support the east, never support a joint contract the value goes down and the climb to a new contract gets harder. The west constantly whined about the east being so stupid as to just accept he Nic and move on, but now with loss in SFO the tone has changed.

Pi brat,

This merger will never be right! I have said this so many times before.

The west was warned by J. Freund that all the risk was on the west side. They didn't listen and sent Freund home at Wye River. Big mistake by the younger smarter west.

The west will never have the numbers they need to dominate the vote because every new hire will vote to keep this thing seperate. Once the attrition kicks in to high gear.....new hires will upgrade in 4 years. Again, we have told the west this from the beginning.

In the next 14 years the east will lose more than 2800 pilots to age 65..............Imagine all the pilots out on medicals as we age in the east.

Black Swan mentioned who he gets his info from in the last thread...........I always commented how the desert judge should have gone to Penn. The Penn educated man has nailed this thing from the start...........he has an impressive history dealing in this field. Black Swan has mentioned the term "frozen" how it will play a major role in the LOA93 pay restoration. I wonder if that same guy that Black Swan gets his info from on the nic has given him insight on the term frozen. Just wondering!

I have mentioned so many times on this board that this would be a good year for the east and a tough year for the west. The year isn't over yet and we still have LOA93 pay restoration and the MDA issue to look forward to. Recalls are about to happen and new hires will follow. Good times in the east.

Keep the donations coming!

Hate

 

[767jetz]

And to answer your question - the west would vote yes because they realize a decent contract and a few years of delay to their career expectations is the better path to take.

First of all, they already have a decent contract compared to yours. A small raise while losing work rules and no improvement on anything else like retirement and vacation would not be considered a decent contract by any reasonable person.

Secondly, you are admitting right here that your intention is to delay the west their career expectation. Not only an admission of a windfall (delaying the west career in favor of the east's career), but also an admission that they actually had that career expectation, which is something most of the east pilots here have claimed didn't exist in the first place since 'AWA was doomed as well.' (to paraphrase).

It's interesting how subtle changes are made to the story when it is advantageous to do so. At least that's the way it seems.

 

[767jetz]

The west will never have the numbers they need to dominate the vote because every new hire will vote to keep this thing seperate. Once the attrition kicks in to high gear.....new hires will upgrade in 4 years. Again, we have told the west this from the beginning.

So in this case it would be OK for an east new hire to be a 4 year captain over a west pilot of more LOS. In fact you would encourage it and sell it as such in order to capture their vote. (Or at least capture their passive compliance in keeping things separate.) Hmmmm... Does this sound rather hypocritical to anyone but me?

The East has looked down their nose and spoken in disdain about the 3 year West captains for years now. 'How dare they think they have value compared to an East F/O of 17 or 18 years,' or something like that. But if the new hire soon-to-be-captain is on the east side and supports the cause, well that's OK.

But wait!!! What's this about "keeping this thing separate" ??? I thought the east said it's time to move on and get a DOH contract with C&R's. That's what everyone keeps saying right? "Move on!" "Stop obstructing progress!" Could it be that the USAPA actually knows they are in a corner, and that separate ops is the only alternative to the Nic award? Of course no one will admit this because further intentional delay would mean they are not bargaining in good faith, which would be a clear DFR violation. Then again, Hate may have just shown his cards too soon and already revealed the game plan.

 

[ebwgs]

So in this case it would be OK for an east new hire to be a 4 year captain over a west pilot of more LOS. In fact you would encourage it and sell it as such in order to capture their vote. (Or at least capture their passive compliance in keeping things separate.) Hmmmm... Does this sound rather hypocritical to anyone but me?

The East has looked down their nose and spoken in disdain about the 3 year West captains for years now. 'How dare they think they have value compared to an East F/O of 17 or 18 years,' or something like that. But if the new hire soon-to-be-captain is on the east side and supports the cause, well that's OK.

But wait!!! What's this about "keeping this thing separate" ??? I thought the east said it's time to move on and get a DOH contract with C&R's. That's what everyone keeps saying right? "Move on!" "Stop obstructing progress!" Could it be that the USAPA actually knows they are in a corner, and that separate ops is the only alternative to the Nic award? Of course no one will admit this because further intentional delay would mean they are not bargaining in good faith, which would be a clear DFR violation. Then again, Hate may have just shown his cards too soon and already revealed the game plan.

Why don't you mind your own UAL/CO business? This conflict doesn't affect you, or are you concerned that perhaps sometime in the future it will?

 

[A320 Driver]

It's interesting how subtle changes are made to the story when it is advantageous to do so. At least that's the way it seems.

Hmmmm ... kinda like the West guys saying "don't come to PHX" in the beginning. Now it's "don't lock US in PHX".

The economic realities are completely different today than they were when this merger was consummated. Likewise, the seniority list has changed dynamics (with recalls/furloughs etc) as well. I don't think we will find an answer in either position (East OR West). Time for something new IMO.

Driver B)

 

[Piedmont1984]

First of all, they already have a decent contract compared to yours. A small raise while losing work rules and no improvement on anything else like retirement and vacation would not be considered a decent contract by any reasonable person.

Secondly, you are admitting right here that your intention is to delay the west their career expectation. Not only an admission of a windfall (delaying the west career in favor of the east's career), but also an admission that they actually had that career expectation, which is something most of the east pilots here have claimed didn't exist in the first place since 'AWA was doomed as well.' (to paraphrase).

It's interesting how subtle changes are made to the story when it is advantageous to do so. At least that's the way it seems.

Well it seems you are incorrect. The fact that the west embraces this concept of career expectations and considers it to be a windfall for us if those expectations do not materialize - does not mean that I do, nor does me starting my comment with their flawed premise make it- career expectations - an objective reality.

 

[Hate2fly]

So in this case it would be OK for an east new hire to be a 4 year captain over a west pilot of more LOS. In fact you would encourage it and sell it as such in order to capture their vote. (Or at least capture their passive compliance in keeping things separate.) Hmmmm... Does this sound rather hypocritical to anyone but me?

The East has looked down their nose and spoken in disdain about the 3 year West captains for years now. 'How dare they think they have value compared to an East F/O of 17 or 18 years,' or something like that. But if the new hire soon-to-be-captain is on the east side and supports the cause, well that's OK.

But wait!!! What's this about "keeping this thing separate" ??? I thought the east said it's time to move on and get a DOH contract with C&R's. That's what everyone keeps saying right? "Move on!" "Stop obstructing progress!" Could it be that the USAPA actually knows they are in a corner, and that separate ops is the only alternative to the Nic award? Of course no one will admit this because further intentional delay would mean they are not bargaining in good faith, which would be a clear DFR violation. Then again, Hate may have just shown his cards too soon and already revealed the game plan.

767jetz,

I truly believe Dougie wants to keep this seperate. To combine this airline will cost him 400 to 500 million per year. The only way he puts this thing together is because some other airline wants him to put it together (merger). If we prevail on the LOA93 pay restoration it only costs the company 150 million bucks per year.......still cheaper than putting this turd together.

You should really be concerned about your own backyard........last time I checked you guys had 1400 plus furloughed.......that should be fun to watch you tell your brothers how they should suck it up to some Continental pilot with a couple of years on the job. You need to check out how many wide body airplanes UAL has verses Continental. You have alot to lose!

Your buddies in the west blew this big time trying to jump over a bunch of older more senior guys. Mesa/Trans States mentality. I have not flown with anyone back east that wants anything from the west operation........most guys pray for a merger to get out from under the team tempe mentality.

The desert judge got spanked because he tried to do something that was wrong.................he should have gone to Penn.

Hate

 

[luvn737s]

You're right, stop was the wrong word, how about hurting? Every time a west poster says they will never support USAPA, never support the east, never support a joint contract the value goes down and the climb to a new contract gets harder. The west constantly whined about the east being so stupid as to just accept he Nic and move on, but now with loss in SFO the tone has changed.

No, the west wanted validation for the idea of playing by the rules and seeing the final outcome of the process they participated in fully and cooperatively. The idea that the east should be rewarded for tipping over the game board when they were losing is offensive to many west pilots. AOL was formed to reign in the tyranny of the majority and ensure that the minority's rights were not trampled. That is why they sought justice in the courts.

All the 9th said in effect is, there is no penalty for Intent to Unfairly Represent. However, when they actually do (and it appears that is their course, barring any major leadership upheaval) then they will face the penalty for not fairly representing the west pilots and incorporating the Nicolau list. The path to this DFR has been paved by USAPA by their past words and actions (including Bradford's admission for the founding of USAPA) and the outcome of DFR 2 should not be a surprise. However, it will put us back on the track to appeals to the 9th and SCOTUS and the resolution of the integration will be many, many years away.

This is why a new bargaining representitive is so important. By forming it cooperatively the clock is reset to the mediation process. The C&BL's can include a path to integration that does not disenfranchise either side and there can be an end to the infighting and lawsuits. This cannot happen under USAPA. A Constitutional Congress made up of equal numbers of east and west pilots can hammer out a new constitution and once integration is complete a pilot rep board can be seated that proportionally represents the pilots from the various bases.

USAPA is at a dead-end of their own making. I encourage everyone to consider embarking on a new flight plan toward integration, or to remain in an eternal deadlock with valuable dues money being wasted on lawyers fees into the indefinite future.

 

[traderjake]

Why don't you mind your own UAL/CO business? This conflict doesn't affect you, or are you concerned that perhaps sometime in the future it will?

Someone is a little sensitive about having their unethical behavior pointed out by others.

 

[luvn737s]

The desert judge got spanked because he tried to do something that was wrong.................he should have gone to Penn.

The Hon. Judge Neil Wake saw through the thinly veiled arguement of USAPA that they hadn't harmed anyone. He felt it necessary to stop USAPA before they did irrepairable harm. The DOH mandate in the C&BL's is what harms the west and unfairly represents them. Had they merely revised the C&BL's and retracted their DOH list, they would likely have seen the injunction lifted and they could have negotiated whatever they needed to to produce a passable contract.

But why would someone relying on billable hours recommend that solution to USAPA?

Penn - the only Ivy League school in a war zone. If you can't get into a decent school, there's always Penn.