US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/28- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Richard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

In the last thread I deleted a record number of posts due to rules violations, and there were some additions to the corn field.

PLEASE review the rules of the board as posted atop EVERY forum...

If you have a beef with an individual poster, take the argument to PM-do NOT have a back and forth fight in the public forum--it will mean 21 days off...for BOTH parties.

Thank you.

 

[nic4us]

,,,,,,, because I don't plan on going away just because you want it to be.

Just like an arbitrated seniority award we are all familiar with.

 

[LSS]

Why? Do you get to live by different rules than the rest of the world? How narcissistic. You guys waste no time speculating endlessly on matters that have yet to be determined as if it is pre-ordained.

Whoa there 76...

Seems to me that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Considering the amount of time you spend here... you know full well... there's conjecture everywhere... it's not just a one way “East” thing! What is obvious to even the most casual “observer” of which you are not… anytime anything “bad” for USAPA and the East pilots is remotely perceived, there are numerous gleeful West posts prognosticating the downfall of USAPA and the East…

While we’ll never “give” you the NIC by ratification of a contract containing it… we don’t wish anything bad for the West…

 

[nic4us]

Supercruiser posted;

Yes I believe there is a very small amount of denial of jumpseats by W Capts. Yes it seems to be increasing of lately; maybe it's an anomaly. I hope it's not a trend. Yes I know personally of 3 very recent occasions that were related to me. Yes I wouldn't doubt that there are more that I don't know about. The ones that never happened obviously aren't denials. I know about one very recently related to me that started out a denial, then was allowed (forced) to ride the f/a jumpseat. Of course I haven't witnessed any denials, as so far it hasn't happened to me. In fact I've been treated great the times I have had to ask for W js.


Cruiser, I have not had an east js request for some time now, however I would like to ask about this riding of the f/a jumpseat.

On West metal, West pilots can ride the f/a jumpseat. I am under the impression that it is not allowed on east metal because of something in the east f/a's contract. This could become somewhat of an issue if the f/a's get a joint contract that would no longer allow pilots to ride on f/a jumpseats. The West 321s have 7 f/a jumpseats, making a total 5 open jumpseats onboard available, most of our 320/319s have 4 f/a js making 3 open seats available. It often becomes an issue for company pilots, and more likely for OAL pilots trying to get on flights where company pilots have already listed. The OAL pilot is allowed up front and the company pilot can take the f/a jumpseat. It also helps for getting that last non-rev or two onboard if someone is willing to sit on a jumpseat.

My question is, who do we solicit to make sure the f/a jumpseats remain open to pilots in any future f/a joint contract? Also, if the east could get their f/a jumpseats open to pilots it could solve or at least minimize the whole denial issue by keeping things off the flightdeck and removing the safety arguement from Captains that are not proffesional enough to allow the opposite sides pilot to ride up front.

In any event, for you commuters out there, we need to keep the f/a jumpseats open to pilots in the future.

 

[cleardirect]

Whoa there 76...

Seems to me that's like the pot calling the kettle black. Considering the amount of time you spend here... you know full well... there's conjecture everywhere... it's not just a one way “East” thing! What is obvious to even the most casual “observer” of which you are not… anytime anything “bad” for USAPA and the East pilots is remotely perceived, there are numerous gleeful West posts prognosticating the downfall of USAPA and the East…

While we’ll never “give” you the NIC by ratification of a contract containing it… we don’t wish anything bad for the West…

Your wish and dream of DOH is extremely bad for the west.

A RICO law suit is bad for the west.

Delaying a contract because you don't like the results of arbitration is bad for the west. The east has not "wished" for bad things, the east has actively forced bad things on the west.

Would you like to correct your statement?

 

[767jetz]

you know full well... there's conjecture everywhere... it's not just a one way “East” thing!

I agree. My response was to someone who likes to repeat himself over and over again with snide comments like "when's the damages trial" etc. He is the one who said "Let's talk about it after he does the first spanking" as if we are not allowed to express our opinions as to what we think these new developments actually mean. Especially if one happens not to be an Airways employee.

I have always been the first to say that there are no absolutes in this mess and it can go either way. Everything on this forum is opinion and speculation until the last legal battle is fought and there is a joint contract with one seniority list in place with no more legal challenges.

Try to take my comments in the context of who said what first, and what I was responding to.

 

[AstroLounge]

Supercruiser posted;

Yes I believe there is a very small amount of denial of jumpseats by W Capts. Yes it seems to be increasing of lately; maybe it's an anomaly. I hope it's not a trend. Yes I know personally of 3 very recent occasions that were related to me. Yes I wouldn't doubt that there are more that I don't know about. The ones that never happened obviously aren't denials. I know about one very recently related to me that started out a denial, then was allowed (forced) to ride the f/a jumpseat. Of course I haven't witnessed any denials, as so far it hasn't happened to me. In fact I've been treated great the times I have had to ask for W js.


Cruiser, I have not had an east js request for some time now, however I would like to ask about this riding of the f/a jumpseat.

On West metal, West pilots can ride the f/a jumpseat. I am under the impression that it is not allowed on east metal because of something in the east f/a's contract. This could become somewhat of an issue if the f/a's get a joint contract that would no longer allow pilots to ride on f/a jumpseats. The West 321s have 7 f/a jumpseats, making a total 5 open jumpseats onboard available, most of our 320/319s have 4 f/a js making 3 open seats available. It often becomes an issue for company pilots, and more likely for OAL pilots trying to get on flights where company pilots have already listed. The OAL pilot is allowed up front and the company pilot can take the f/a jumpseat. It also helps for getting that last non-rev or two onboard if someone is willing to sit on a jumpseat.

My question is, who do we solicit to make sure the f/a jumpseats remain open to pilots in any future f/a joint contract? Also, if the east could get their f/a jumpseats open to pilots it could solve or at least minimize the whole denial issue by keeping things off the flightdeck and removing the safety arguement from Captains that are not proffesional enough to allow the opposite sides pilot to ride up front.

In any event, for you commuters out there, we need to keep the f/a jumpseats open to pilots in the future.

With MANY East F/A's commuting nowadays than ever, I HIGHLY DOUBT that many in the AFA East would be willing to allow ANY Pilot to take a Cabin Jumpseat before them (regardless of seniority or where You are from) since the Flight Deck jumpseat is NOT Available to them. Maybe a provision could be written 'should there be no other F/A waiting on the J/S but I still would say N-O. That's all we need is a bunch of pilot's throwing themselves into the mix and creating a BIGGER Cluster during the boarding process..........because some still don't get it............"STAY OUT of My Way!" and get that darn luggage OUT of the galley.

 

[LSS]

Your wish and dream of DOH is extremely bad for the west.

A RICO law suit is bad for the west.

Delaying a contract because you don't like the results of arbitration is bad for the west. The east has not "wished" for bad things, the east has actively forced bad things on the west.

Would you like to correct your statement?

DC...

What??? "the east has actively forced bad things on the west"??? What bad things have been forced on the West???

Because of AOL's solomn pledge to "destroy the union," to disrupt services, to deny jumpseats, to falsely claim that USAPA has delayed a contract (when AOL admitted in court that USAPA has not tried to delay negotiations for a joint contract)???...

My response to you is a resounding NO!...

...because your dream, your fervent wish... the NIC... is not only "bad" for the East... it will entirely destroy the remaining careers of pilots with many more years LOS than those on the West who would be placed ahead of them...

No bump... no flush... keep what you had... we'll keep ours thank you... We don't want your flying... we don't want your seats... you can keep your darned attrition... just leave ours alone... As long as we have a vote... the NIC will never be implemented... despite the BS that 320 likes to spew...

As I have predicted before... and I stand by it still... it is highly doubtful that you will ever see a west and east pilot share the flight deck... except in granting a JS (I have never denied a West pilot a ride -- and never will!).

It is pointless to continue this loop... I'm not going to convince you and you will never convince me... So how's the weather in PHX? Hot as hell I would imagine!

 

[Zarah]

Supercruiser posted;
On West metal, West pilots can ride the f/a jumpseat. I am under the impression that it is not allowed on east metal because of something in the east f/a's contract.

Why would any EAST FA vote for any contract that allowed this to happen?

 

[Justme]

With MANY East F/A's commuting nowadays than ever, I HIGHLY DOUBT that many in the AFA East would be willing to allow ANY Pilot to take a Cabin Jumpseat before them (regardless of seniority or where You are from) since the Flight Deck jumpseat is NOT Available to them. Maybe a provision could be written 'should there be no other F/A waiting on the J/S but I still would say N-O. That's all we need is a bunch of pilot's throwing themselves into the mix and creating a BIGGER Cluster during the boarding process..........because some still don't get it............"STAY OUT of My Way!" and get that darn luggage OUT of the galley.

I believe that F/As have priority for cabin jump seats. I once saw a pilot get bumped from a cabin jumpseat by a F/A minutes before the door was closed.

 

[767jetz]

the NIC... is not only "bad" for the East... it will entirely destroy the remaining careers of pilots with many more years LOS than those on the West who would be placed ahead of them...

Here we go again. No matter how many times you repeat the mantra, it doesn't make it true.

Your career was already destroyed when AWA came along to your BK#2. Neither the west nor the Nic had anything to do with it. Just ask the 18 year east pilot who was furloughed. It baffles me that you are still trying to convince anyone that his career wasn't already destroyed. The Nic basically left everyone with the seniority necessary to bid what they had the day before the merger. Anything beyond that is combined growth at the new company and fair game to ALL pilots. You can't lay claim to all future growth just because you had "x" flying once upon a time.

You should get used to this concept, just in case the company gets the court to rule that it must be used.

 

[Phoenix]

Whoa there 76...

.. Considering the amount of time you spend here... ..

I think 76 is concerned that U and UAL will eventually merge someday... and believes his LOS will be increased in proportion to his posts on the forum.

 

[767jetz]

I think 76 is concerned that U and UAL will eventually merge someday... and believes his LOS will be increased in proportion to his posts on the forum.

At this point I don't think there is any chance that UA will EVER merger with US.

I think USA320pilot said it best.

USA320pilot said on July 26, 2010:

In the end, for me this issue is about integrity and not going back on our word by breaking a promise. Far too many people are accommodating their thoughts to believe what they want to hear when we all know the East pilots broke a promise for money and their desire to virtually staple the West pilots (85 percent) to the bottom of the seniority list with DOH/C&Rs.

US Airways' pilots are viewed in the industry by managements, other pilot groups, and outside observers as people they do not want to merge or work with because the East pilots cannot be trusted. I can see why.

It's too bad and this probably contributed to US Airways not being part of the Big 3 legacy companies

I never thought I'd see the day where I would say that USA320pilot actually sounds more rational and connected to reality than the rest of the east posters on this forum. But I guess that day has come.
I only hope he is right when he says:

I believe the tide has shifted on the East where most Captains and many First Officers now believe the information they were provided by Steve Bradford, Lee Seham, and USAPA's founding fathers was invalid. The majority of East and West pilots want to move forward, accept the Nicolau Award, and negotiate a reasonable joint contract. And, I believe there are enough votes to elect a new union through an NMB ordered Representation Election, with most likely seeking a return to ALPA forthcoming, if USAPA loses the LOA 93 Pay Freeze Arbitration, with the Opinion & Award due in August or September.

It would mean that there are actually more rational east pilots out there that are not represented by the vocal minority on this forum.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Here we go again. No matter how many times you repeat the mantra, it doesn't make it true.

Your career was already destroyed when AWA came along to your BK#2. Neither the west nor the Nic had anything to do with it. Just ask the 18 year east pilot who was furloughed. It baffles me that you are still trying to convince anyone that his career wasn't already destroyed. The Nic basically left everyone with the seniority necessary to bid what they had the day before the merger. Anything beyond that is combined growth at the new company and fair game to ALL pilots. You can't lay claim to all future growth just because you had "x" flying once upon a time.

You should get used to this concept, just in case the company gets the court to rule that it must be used.

YOUR CAREER WAS DESTROYED WHEN AWA CAME ALONG TO YOUR BK#2. Great point so if we had nothing then the rest should be who cares? But the WEST seems bound and determined to a different end, HECK WE DON'T GIVE A S+_t hello get over it! WE Don't care been a great ride like our boy LEE MOAK said" the industry would do better without usairways" so be it! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

JETZ, Do a wilson poll then expect the opposite, the majority of the usairways pilots voted ALPA,bye , with ALPA's policies did you expect any different! PS SILENT MAJORITY! MM!