US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[HPearlyretiree]

As per usual, you hit many nails on their heads. I agree with you that DOH is the only fair way for a seniority list to be drawn. His/her seniority is the ONLY thing a pilot has. Is it any wonder that those fighting so hard for it will never give up?

The Nic list is like gerrymandering voting districts. You know how that's done. Whoever has the political power decides what a voting district will be and it will favor that power. However, that is an unfair practice just as the Nic award is unfair now.

Doesn't matter whether anyone thinks the Nic list is fair or not. 3 sides all agreed to the binding arbitration, and all agreed to abide by the results. Too bad that the east didn't like what they agreed to. They tried every thing to get out of their agreement, going so far as to form an entire new union, but, we all know how that worked.

The east entered into the agreement with their eyes open, they must live up to what they agreed to. And the 9th circus will say the same thing, and so will the supreme court. But, USAPA wants to continue to waste millions of dollars, and waste time on a quixotic quest.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I never said I had inside information. What I have postedis purely my opinion and based on my observations. So while I'm observing and opining I think ALPA as a union is worthless and never had the best interests of any line pilot at any airlines best interests at heart.

ALPA is about perpetuating ALPA at the expense of everything else.



Doesn't look real promising for USAPA right now, but the game isn't over.

I would hazzard a guess that there are a whole bunch of pilots at alot of ALPA represented companies that would vote them out in a heartbeat if some other pilots would do the organizing.

When USAPA wins at the 9th, you bet a whole bunch of pilots who are ALPA now will think about reclaiming their rights as union members. ALPA is dead but it doesn't realize it quite yet. There will come a day when enough ALPA pilots get fed up to their pitot tubes and throw ALPA under the bus. Wouldn't that be grand!

I am not a pilot but I lived with one for a very long time (marriage). He quit going to ALPA "meetings" because the MEC's or LEC's would call the meetings to order and then go directly into executive session. I read all of the ALPA garbage mail that came into our house because my husband wouldn't waste his time. After I read the stuff I understood why he wouldn't waste his time. During his long career, ALPA never did one thing for him.

He is gone now and I respect him for never believing one thing ALPA ever said. How do you know an ALPA rep is lying? His lips move.

I have absolutely NO respect for a "union" ...ALPA, that ignores the rank and file in favor of feathering their own nest.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Doesn't matter whether anyone thinks the Nic list is fair or not. 3 sides all agreed to the binding arbitration, and all agreed to abide by the results. Too bad that the east didn't like what they agreed to. They tried every thing to get out of their agreement, going so far as to form an entire new union, but, we all know how that worked.

The east entered into the agreement with their eyes open, they must live up to what they agreed to. And the 9th circus will say the same thing, and so will the supreme court. But, USAPA wants to continue to waste millions of dollars, and waste time on a quixotic quest.

You may not think fairness doesn't matter but it does. You have GOT to be kidding that the Nic award is fair. You have a crystal ball regarding what the 9th will decide? Does the West have the money to go to SCOTUS?

I don't read your posts because mostly they are full of hot air. And rather nasty too. But I decided to answer this one. Why don't you try to post in a more reasonable manner? Nastiness doesn't get anyone anywhere.

 

[aquagreen73s]

When USAPA wins at the 9th,

Dude, your case is DOA!

I'm taking bets now: it'll be 3-0 panel decision in favor of the West as USAPA's case is that delusional.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Dude, your case is DOA!

I'm taking bets now: it'll be 3-0 panel decision in favor of the West as USAPA's case is that delusional.

First of all, don't call me "Dude". Secondly, this is not my case. Thirdly, you say the case is DOA yet you are taking bets? That rather undercuts your certainty, no?

Now run along and play, DUDE!

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I am not a pilot but I lived with one for a very long time (marriage). He quit going to ALPA "meetings" because the MEC's or LEC's would call the meetings to order and then go directly into executive session. I read all of the ALPA garbage mail that came into our house because my husband wouldn't waste his time. After I read the stuff I understood why he wouldn't waste his time. During his long career, ALPA never did one thing for him.
He is gone now and I respect him for never believing one thing ALPA ever said. How do you know an ALPA rep is lying? His lips move.

Oh, silly me! I forgot a few things ALPA did for my late husband. The most important one was to take his pension away from him after 36 years of service to USAir.

 

[WhatBag?]

This is only one person's observation, so please don't slam me. I am only observing from that of a F/A and the interaction I have had with many pilots since this entire mess started.

To many East pilots, the Nic award was not the only reason that the East pilots wanted to dump ALPA, but it appears that it was the last straw. MANY pilots I have spoken with are not happy with the dragging out of all of this as things are presently. There appears to be much more uneasiness with USAPA from the East pilots then is posted here. This leads me to believe the decision to dump ALPA was too much based on emotion and perhaps was a mistake. The problem as I see it looking from outside the situation is that pride and ego are fueling a battle that I feel just will not be won. It takes a big man or woman to admit defeat and that one was wrong. The East guys put up a battle that was based on bullying because of numbers and I am sorry, but as an Eastie, it DOES come across as sore losers... We are bigger, so we will show you. I know I will be slammed for saying this, but agreeing to binding arbitration does not mean only if I win. Binding arbitration means you will accept the results. I am always hearing so much about God and Country collectively from the pilot group, but when it comes to actually adhering to one of the most important things about God and Country...INTEGRITY...the message gets lost and sounds very hypocritical.

It's time for the East pilots to concede defeat and move on. It is also time for the West pilots to concede that USAPA is YOUR union as well. It is time for the West pilots to be gracious winners as well. Your pilot group did your fair share of complaining about ALPA national as well, but like it or not, you are stuck with USAPA. It is also time to call another vote on representation now that what has been seen by many as an one issue cause has for the most part been settled. It is only fair to let the pilot group vote MINUS the emotion of Nic and the REALITIES that this is PROBABLY the way it is going to be.

Now go ahead and have a field day on how I am just a stupid FA or a plant from one side or the other or management. Please guys, put down the swords before you kill all of us!

 

[UtterlyUdder]

ANYTIME you go to court your chances for an unexpected outcome increase. IOW it's a crap shoot. It often depends upon how a judge or judges view things philospophically. Some are strict constructionists and other more activist and it makes a difference in the outcome.

While it was a criminal and not civil, anybody remember the OJ Verdict?

Heaven forbid Bob! You mentioned the OJ verdict! That's a bozo no-no on here.

However you are right as rain. All these West guys who have already decided the verdict forget that they are not the 9th circuit judges. It appears to me that they do a lot of whistling past the grave yard speculating. If they say they already won so many times that it makes a person reading their posts gag, I suppose they think they will.

The DFR jury trial ended in what I think was jury nullification. A three hour deliberation can't be anything but that.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

This is only one person's observation, so please don't slam me. I am only observing from that of a F/A and the interaction I have had with many pilots since this entire mess started.

To many East pilots, the Nic award was not the only reason that the East pilots wanted to dump ALPA, but it appears that it was the last straw. MANY pilots I have spoken with are not happy with the dragging out of all of this as things are presently. There appears to be much more uneasiness with USAPA from the East pilots then is posted here. This leads me to believe the decision to dump ALPA was too much based on emotion and perhaps was a mistake. The problem as I see it looking from outside the situation is that pride and ego are fueling a battle that I feel just will not be won. It takes a big man or woman to admit defeat and that one was wrong. The East guys put up a battle that was based on bullying because of numbers and I am sorry, but as an Eastie, it DOES come across as sore losers... We are bigger, so we will show you. I know I will be slammed for saying this, but agreeing to binding arbitration does not mean only if I win. Binding arbitration means you will accept the results. I am always hearing so much about God and Country collectively from the pilot group, but when it comes to actually adhering to one of the most important things about God and Country...INTEGRITY...the message gets lost and sounds very hypocritical.

It's time for the East pilots to concede defeat and move on. It is also time for the West pilots to concede that USAPA is YOUR union as well. It is time for the West pilots to be gracious winners as well. Your pilot group did your fair share of complaining about ALPA national as well, but like it or not, you are stuck with USAPA. It is also time to call another vote on representation now that what has been seen by many as an one issue cause has for the most part been settled. It is only fair to let the pilot group vote MINUS the emotion of Nic and the REALITIES that this is PROBABLY the way it is going to be.

Now go ahead and have a field day on how I am just a stupid FA or a plant from one side or the other or management. Please guys, put down the swords before you kill all of us!

I don't think you are a stupid FA. Anyone who is a fan of Pam Ann is a friend of mine.

While I don't agree with some of what you say, I worry that a union that is only 16 or so months old will be deserted by its members. That is not enough time for a good shakedown cruise. Right away, the DFR suit was filed before anyone in USAPA had a chance to catch their breath because they won the right to represent ALL pilots of USAirways. I think a recent arbitration stated precisely that. All pilots at USAir are represented by USAPA.

You are right that the Nic award wasn't the only reason for USair pilots dumping ALPA. Both the East and the West had issues with that outfit. As I recall, I think the West tried to dump ALPA a few times.

The only fair way for a seniority list to be drawn is by DOH. That is a fact. Now that the Nic award has bollixed everything up, it has come to a point where the 9th circuit court of appeals is involved. I have no idea how this will turn out but I stand by my opinion that date of hire is the only fair way.

I haven't googled it yet but my bet is that there are very few unions, airline or otherwise, that are not DOH.

I found your opinions interesting. Don't EVER think you are stupid!!! Your's was a well written opinion which you are entitled to.

 

[HPDriver]

The only fair way for a seniority list to be drawn is by DOH.

Only if you're an east pilot.

Relative seniority is the only way to go.

It's fair because it recognized one's time at their own company prior to the merger instead of allowing certain pilots to try and rescue their injured careers on the backs of others.

I have no idea how this will turn out...

True, nothing that goes to court is a slam dunk. But if you had to bet one way or the other, the odds are against the east.

I haven't googled it yet but my bet is that there are very few unions, airline or otherwise, that are not DOH.

Ya, that DL/NW integration was pretty obscure so I can see how you'd have to google that one, dude.

 

[ClueByFour]

The DFR jury trial ended in what I think was jury nullification. A three hour deliberation can't be anything but that.

To anyone outside of "Eastyville," the fact that the jury even took three hours is shocking. This really is that open and shut.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Thirdly, you say the case is DOA yet you are taking bets? That rather undercuts your certainty, no?

I'll speak slowly as the logic is apparent to most within a millisecond, but perhaps you need a lot longer to understand it: USAPA's case is DOA. Therefore, I'm sooooo confident that Seham will get smacked down yet again, that I'm taking bets this early. But that's not all - the best is 3-0 in favor of the West. Ergo another unanimous decision. Just like the Nicolau Arbitration and just like the 9 person jury verdict.

 

[HPDriver]

you never heard of the AFA official "Chaos" campaign? Well ,, it is underway and the clock is ticking.
01-01-10. tic tic tic .......

Man that's funny.

You were supposed to show the company with LOA 93 too, right?

All I'm sure the company hears is:

yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yip,yi
p,yip,yip,yip,yip

 

[ClueByFour]

Yawn.

You may want to pay more attention: I predicted ya'll would lose a DFR from almost the day Bradford floated the idea.

 

[aquagreen73s]

To anyone outside of "Eastyville," the fact that the jury even took three hours is shocking. This really is that open and shut.

The appellate process is just a mechanical exercise at this point as Judge Wake did a magnificent job defusing USAPA's landmines at the trial court. He was always a mile ahead of Seham. I for one would love to listen to the panel deliberate this thing. I bet there'll be some priceless comments directed at the appellants and their counsel.

This is so over.