US Pilots Labor Discussion-Aug 5 to 12-KEEP ON TOPIC

[traderjake]

You will, in fact, be required to sign dues check-off to regain good standing...to wit:

B. Should a member become delinquent in the payment of dues and/or assessments for more than sixty (60) days such member shall be automatically placed in bad standing and lose all privileges of membership including the right to vote and hold office. A member can only be reinstated to good standing upon enrollment in dues check-off, the payment of all back dues and assessments based on qualifying income, reinstatement fees, interest and penalties owing or satisfactory deposit and signed promissory note

yawn

I will not, in fact, be required to sign dues check-off because I'm not a member.

Ditto, your post are boring us too.

 

[des nudo]

I just see now that you are an agency payer...check-off not required, but writing the check is mandatory...(if you like your job)

I missed your status....as you can see here.

This is old, pay or don't. Your choice. Al will clear his schedule to accomodate your termination.

Personally, I don't care if you pay or not...as long as you know whats at stake.

 

[Metroyet]

I will not, in fact, be required to sign dues check-off because I'm not a member.

Ditto, your post are boring us too.

Who Cares about paying these guys? They KNOW it's over. They KNOW it's a lost cause, and most probably can see the writing on the wall. After all, if you're a MIG, you get a 9% discount on long distance and maybe some kind of deal on a rental car...tell me that isn't worth the money

Every dime of extortion paid to these ham handed wannabes will make watching the Nic. award, implemented in it's full, unmitigated force, that much more fun to watch.

Sec. 29 makes the powerless feel powerful. Donate to their pathetic little charity.

 

[oscarjazz]

I never said I had inside information. What I have postedis purely my opinion and based on my observations. So while I'm observing and opining I think ALPA as a union is worthless and never had the best interests of any line pilot at any airlines best interests at heart.

ALPA is about perpetuating ALPA at the expense of everything else.



Doesn't look real promising for USAPA right now, but the game isn't over.

I would hazzard a guess that there are a whole bunch of pilots at alot of ALPA represented companies that would vote them out in a heartbeat if some other pilots would do the organizing.

How do you explain Airtran joining ALPA? Talking to bitter East pilots doesn't make someone an expert on ALPA. Each carrier that is in ALPA has the right to leave, just like LCC. Your statement about ALPA perpetuating ALPA is just silly. Why would people support a union that does not have their interest at heart.

I am sorry that the East pilots have had a tough time in their careers. Their problems resulted from a failed carrier with a bad business model and terrible management. ALPA has had to deal with the fallout from that mess and thus gets blamed. As you correctly noted, the lives of LCC pilots have gotten no better from the switch to USAPA, in fact, many of the names running the union are ex-ALPA people. There is no union in the world that can rescue a bad company from itself.

ALPA bent over backwards to try to heal the LCC pilot group and put this merger back on track. The East pilots were completely intractable and resorted to blackmail to try to get their way. This whole failed experiment of USAPA, rather than weakening ALPA, has shown to everyone that switching the names on the doorplate doesn't solve your problems. In this case, they made it worse. So your central theory is completely backwards. USAPA has made pilots much more likely to stay with adult leadership, rather than follow the empty promises of the loony fringe.

 

[luvn737s]

This west strategy to foil section 29's was discussed at length on this board already..so, no you get no explanation again.

No, no one is trying to "foil" anything (you gotta stop watching Scooby Doo). Section 29's are normally done to specific individuals based on their delinquency. When more than one are equally delinquent, they should all be processed simultaneously.

If that's too big for USAPA to swallow, too bad. I can't wait for the first lawsuits about this to be filed.

 

[boeingplt]

Uhmm..just curious. Exactly how many west pilots are actually allowed to vote?

Just over 130 made the cut

 

[nycbusdriver]

Uhmm..just curious. Exactly how many west pilots are actually allowed to vote?

Less than 150. Oooooh. I hope they don't vote as a block.

In short, they are irrelevant to the vote results. I understand that there is a push to get ALL less-than-150 of them to vote the W-2 option, because that would be most detrimental to the East f/o's (whom they perceive as their arch enemies.)

Assuming that almost all of the east f/o's are going to vote to their advantage, and that f/o's outnumber captains by a wide margin, and many east captains will do the right thing and not leave the ex-furloughed guys with little or nothing...the vote will go for the Pro-Rata distribution by a wide margin

 

[nycbusdriver]

Al will clear his schedule to accomodate your termination.

I think Al probably likes firing pilots. I doubt he cares one whit whether it is an east or west pilot.

 

[ClueByFour]

Maybe. But there's a lot more bad news in west mailboxes...oh, and the clock starts at the stamped delivery date...not receipt date. I gather many AWA pilots don't pick up their mail anymore. <_<

Actually, you guys (if pressed) will lose that one in court as well.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Actually, you guys (if pressed) will lose that one in court as well.

Yawn.

 

[boeingplt]

Less than 150. Oooooh. I hope they don't vote as a block.

In short, they are irrelevant to the vote results. I understand that there is a push to get ALL less-than-150 of them to vote the W-2 option, because that would be most detrimental to the East f/o's (whom they perceive as their arch enemies.)

Assuming that almost all of the east f/o's are going to vote to their advantage, and that f/o's outnumber captains by a wide margin, and many east captains will do the right thing and not leave the ex-furloughed guys with little or nothing...the vote will go for the Pro-Rata distribution by a wide margin

Exactly right Mr. Driver.

 

[cactusboy53]

cactusboy53,

Now who is myopic? Unless you've lived in a cave since 2002 when I joined US Aviation then you'd know I'm a customer, Not an East Employee.

Is it really done? maybe hp-fa could shed light on how long the appeals process could take?

No matter what the score as long as the ball is in play the other team has a chance of winning. I'm never one to count sales until the product is installed, running and the leasing company funds the deal and in the copier biz alot can happen between order and install.

Bob;
My vision is just fine (even for an old guy...if I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have treated my body better ).

I don't live in a cave, but your posts sounded much more like an East pilot that was upset with the whole seniority process. Your impassioned responses sound like you are a little more involved than simply a customer (Thank you for your patronage, BTW. It is greatly appreciated!!)

You are right, the ball is in play still. I am not gloating, but it is looking like a win for our "team". Our pilot group has let the window for an industry leading contract pass by for the battle cry "Date of Hire". Parker and LLC are the people that we should be directing our efforts toward.

My question to the "other team" is when is it going to be enough for you to move on?

Our "union" leadership held in contempt of court?
Cutting another 2 million to the USAPA law firm?
Having to pay assessed damages to the West pilot group?

 

[nic4us]

I'll answer your question with a question...even though you are reaching.

Do you know the difference between "dues" and "asessments"?

Because if you don't, I can help explain it to you...if you do, you already know your answer.

And I think you do.

"the collection of money" (sounds like an asessment) ... if you read what you wrote, gives you the answer.

What did YOUR contract say again?

Of course I know the difference between "dues" and "asessments" and I pay neither as I am only required to pay "fees", but I do not pay those either, as long as USAPA is in non-compliance with the RLA and NMB.

My contract says USAPA is a band of crooks who rely on misinformation and subterfuge in an attempt to steal what they could not obtain through legal methods.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ahhh but you have to count in the ring leader of that pilot action thingy or something?!?!? He's trying to make friends with the west side, and his old alpa cronies. So he might try and swing the vote towards w2 earnings, as he's in the left seat, seems to indicate he flies quite a bit, and probably has the same sentiment of the document that came from the usapa truth or whatever it was called. If I remember correctly, the writer briefed everyone on his surpreme accounting skills and went into some GD equation on how much he missed on his original DC balance, then his 30% pay cut, and blah blah blah blah.........and basically stated that those that took 100% paycut were due nothing as they didn't work under LOA93. (Hmmm...where did J4J come from??). That this money was his, and he wanted the lions share as he was close to retirement and needed to make more up, as the jr guys had more time to make up their fair share. Now granted if his way was implemented, it would take 5 years of accounting work to decide who got what, but he'd be happy. Maybe dead by then, but happy....

So the point was, the alpa contingent, seems to be leaning W2, as a few capts I've flown with have stated too. Sorry for your furlough, but I need the money. And you know what, take the money and retire, I need the piece of mind. HAHAHA

 

[UtterlyUdder]

I'm a very passionate about alot of things. I'm not going to rehash the whole FFOCUS thing for you so suffice it to say I've been more then a little involved.

To me the definition of Seniority is simply how long you've worked for a company! Date of Hire until date of seperation.

What HP is asking for is what amounts to a "Bid List" that allows pilots to bid based on a variety of criteria, DOH being but one of them.

In a perfect world DOH is nice and clean in that is leaves absolutely NO ROOM for any exceptions or negotaitions. Fair & Equitable it's not as it doesn't take into account lifes vagaries.

Based solely on what I've read (most of it here) the Nicolau Award isn't totally fair and equitable either.

So what's the answer? I'm uncertain as I'm not a pilot. However I can tell you what's happening now isn't working. Money is being pizzed away on Lawyers on both sides, A raise is IMO years away and each day this horse crap continues the deeper the wounds get and become less likely to heal.

This whole debacle was IMO avoidable. Unfortunately hot headed, arrogant, bull headed and self serving leadership on BOTH sides have IMO screwed the average line pilot like a Dutch Whore and that Sir is what stirs my passion.

I've seen plenty of examples of Company's screwing employees. Prior to this I've never seen a work group work so long and hard to screw each other in what will prove to be a futile effort to gain the upper hand at the expense of their fellow pilots on the other side. Whichever side ultimately wins the court battle will find the well so posioned that working together to gain a meaningful contract will be nearly impossible. So even in victory, defeat looms at the bargaining table

As per usual, you hit many nails on their heads. I agree with you that DOH is the only fair way for a seniority list to be drawn. His/her seniority is the ONLY thing a pilot has. Is it any wonder that those fighting so hard for it will never give up?

The Nic list is like gerrymandering voting districts. You know how that's done. Whoever has the political power decides what a voting district will be and it will favor that power. However, that is an unfair practice just as the Nic award is unfair now.