US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

Now on the flip side, Potentially the west will have the voting power to do what they like in about 9 years. After enough east guys have retired. However if it goes that long they will have to contend with 1200 (1700+ retires minus the current non actives ) newhires on the east that by that point will still not want a NIC voted in since no matter what they are below all the west guys. So on paper they will be junior to all west guys no matter what, EXCEPT when it comes to bidding if it is still seperate ops at that point.

So really when it comes right down to it, even the guy that is not hired yet on the east makes out better by it remaining seperate ops in the long run.

When you really look at it from a "what can we get passed" point of view. The union has done really the only thing they can over the last 4 years. Until every avenue has been run and enough retirements have taken place it would have been impossible to get anything with a NIC in it passed. The only out I see for the west to relieve their stagnation is the genorosity of Doug. Which he has none, at best given the Kasher loss and the injunction, we might be offered a slight increase on Kirby. But that is probably a streatch considering our current profit margins. By Tempes numbers it costs 100 Mill for the east to match current west pay and work rules much less a raise for the west also. Quite simply we don't make that much profit at this airline.

 

[Pi brat]

And where did that get us?

As of today not with a failed career as he claimed.

 

[Res Judicata]

[/quote] The union has done really the only thing they can over the last 4 years. Until every avenue has been run and enough retirements have taken place it would have been impossible to get anything with a NIC in it passed.
[/quote]
Yeah. That's called a DFR and it's illegal. Using a union as a weapon against those you force money from is not only immoral and evil, it's patently illegal. Never before in the history of aviation has there ever existed a pilot group so devoid of basic integrity than that of the USCABA loyalist.

 

[cleardirect]

Don't confuse them with the facts. One has to examine were they are in relation to where they were. I get 48K in raises in a few months from non-airline sources (except PBGC). That puts me a little over 200K per. and yes....many easties hold second jobs and did so long before AWA came along.
We may not make exactly what the wesies make but close enough. Many Easties will be making more than they did in previous years. Those raises will be here but NIC will not.Please tell me how many westicles are getting SS money.....NO PBGC money ....and NOT moving to bigger equipment.
I say the East is doing fine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Plus all of the west squawking is from junior reserves.....SUCKS TO BE YOU.

ONE FINAL NOTE......THE ONLY TIME YOU WILL GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HAVING 17 YEARS AND BEING ON THE BOTTOM IS WHEN YOU HAVE 17 YEARS AND YOU ARE ON THE BOTTOM. If we merge with AA I will lobbY USAPA that furloughees get their DOH and when recalled they hold what their DOH gives them. Where will the bottom AWA guys be then....ON THE BOTTOM for 17 years and what will that buy you in the next merger ???

NICDOA
NPJB

Well good for you. You do all the lobbing you want for the AA furloughs to get DOH.

Oh BTW you do know that the senior furloughed AA pilots has a DOH of 4/25/1996 right. You willing to throw all of the east new hires/furloughed including yourself under the bus?

6/10/2001 4/25/1996 5/28/2036 FUR -- 6/1/2003

Yes 2036 is his retirement date. You see he got hired at 25. The horror a young guy hired in 1996 on furloughed placed in front of all you old guys. So you go advocate all day long for the AA furloughed pilots.

I am sure that your group would be more than willing to step out of the way to let the guys that have been standing in line go ahead. Is that not what you have been telling us for years?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Yeah. That's called a DFR and it's illegal. Using a union as a weapon against those you force money from is not only immoral and evil, it's patently illegal. Never before in the history of aviation has there ever existed a pilot group so devoid of basic integrity than that of the USCABA loyalist.

There is a good chance that putting out something that has a chance to pass is the only option. DFR or not. Unless Doug coughs up a lot of money I don't think anything with NIC can pass. If something is put out that includes a small raise, which I think is the best we can hope for from Doug, and is not NIC( not DOH either) , and with somekind of protection for PHX, I think it has a good chance of passing from the east list and the west Captains. Not all the west Captains of course, but enough will take the raise and the guarantee that they wont have to move to the east coast.

IF something like that occurs with the majority of the group both east and west voting for it. The DFR would come. However it seems that such a DFR would have a hard time overcoming the fact that most voted for it.

It is pretty clear we are going nowhere like it stands. If there were not 1700+ retirements on the east in the next 9 years i could see a NIC getting a passing vote. It kind of looks like some middle of the road not DOH and not NIC is the only way to get anything passed.

Now before you yell about me negotiating or whatever, remember what I said earlier about where I stand on the list between widebody or narrowbody. It does not matter in the slightest which way it goes for me. If Tempes offer is enough to get me (and most of the east) to vote for a NIC, that means it is in excess of widebody rates for narrowbody equipment and F/O rates equal to current Capt rates on the east. Anything less than that and I will only vote yes on something that does not include NIC. Neither will the bottom 1/3 of the east list that is stapled in a NIC.

it is very possible that taking a DFR suit is the preferable way to go in the sense that it might be the only way to get a joint contract.

 

[cactusboy53]

Here are some of the key weaknesses to the Scope language in the West contract:

• The title of the West Contract Section 1 says it all; Recognition, Scope and MANAGEMENT Rights.
• The East Contract Section 1 says:
• RECOGNITION, SCOPE, SUCCESSORSHIP, AND LABOR PROTECTIVE PROVISIONS.
• In the event of a complete merger…. There is no language in the event of a partial merger or asset sales in this particular section. East language has 20% of assets language, and does not differentiate between complete and incomplete merger.
• “Where the surviving carrier decides to integrate the pre-merger operations”…. What if the surviving carrier decides not to have a large hub in Phoenix or Las Vegas and substantially downsizes these from Hubs to a “Focus Citie” as they did with Pittsburgh? No protection! It could be argued that this language then does not apply. If there is a substantial change to “pre-merger operations” then this language may not apply and not protect the pilots.
• …the Company will make reasonable efforts to have the surviving carrier integrate… the two pilot groups in the same manner as stated in (1) of this paragraph. This is a deal killer. Reasonable Efforts are a non-defined term. The company could ask the transferee to comply with the seniority provision and the transferee simply says no. So much for reasonable efforts ! There are no teeth in this agreement and no way to force the company to comply.

A deal could be easily structured to avoid any Scope obligation at all in the West language.

The East Language is much more concrete:
East language talks about asset transfers and sales not aircraft transfers only.
East language is binding on the successor with no “reasonable efforts” language.
East language does not require a complete merger, only a triggering event of 20%.
East language gives USAPA the right to re-enter section 6 or extend the contract.
East language does not depend on language regarding pre-merger operations integration.
East language gives CAR’s or contingent acquisition rights to the pilots.
East language has withstood several mergers and two bankruptcies and is still largely intact.

WEST SCOPE LANAGUAGE IS ESSENTIALLY NON-EXISTANT!!

RR

Sooooooo.......Let's fix OUR next contract Reed. The Nicolau seniority list is THE seniority list. Let's get control of our "union". Change the leadership, CBL's and Committee makeup. Get the SHARPEST minds in the NAC and Merger NOW. Get the company to re-visit the closed sections of contract negotiations from 2007-8. Address SCOPE, PAY and other un-closed sections and get this done.

You have to admit the AWA contract is overall SUPERIOR to LOA 93. Presently our NAC is GIVING AWAY TONS OF STUFF THAT THE AWA CONTRACT DOES HAVE....AND FOR WHAT???? One more thing on scope: With the age 65 around the corner and the FACT that there are as many people seeking to do this for a living AND the worldwide demand.....How many regional carriers do you think will actually exist in 10 years?

CB

 

[CallawayGolf]

ONE FINAL NOTE......THE ONLY TIME YOU WILL GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HAVING 17 YEARS AND BEING ON THE BOTTOM IS WHEN YOU HAVE 17 YEARS AND YOU ARE ON THE BOTTOM. If we merge with AA I will lobbY USAPA that furloughees get their DOH and when recalled they hold what their DOH gives them. Where will the bottom AWA guys be then....ON THE BOTTOM for 17 years and what will that buy you in the next merger ???

NICDOA
NPJB

And who will you be lobbying to? A merger with AA will be governed by the McCaskill-Bond provision and that means a federal arbitrator. Who was the last arbitrator that used DOH as the determinant criteria for integrating pilot seniority lists? Now compare that to the pilot integrations that have not gone with a DOH scheme.

I suspect your lobbying will go just about as well as the east MEC's intransigent position for DOH or nothing position before the Nicolau panel. There is no way a federal arbitrator is going to use DOH in any pilot seniority integrations. So lobby away; that strategy is about as likely to succeed as USAPA's ability to deliver any tangible value to its constituents. (That would be a number very close to zero to quote a certain executive who was asked about the LOA93 grievance's chance for success about two years ago).

 

[cactusboy53]

Parker snatched the East operation because he saw value in it and a chance for him to put a lot of money in his pocket. He couldn't care less about you boys out West. If he didn't see value in merging with USAir, you boys would have been out of a job too. Where did that value come from, you ask? The gutted contract on the East and the East pilot's willingness to invest $9 billion to further their careers.

Tell me again, how much value did you guys bring to the table? Yeah, I thought so, zero....nil....nada.

breeze

Oh he got a value alright. 4000+ pilots at bankruptcy wages during an economic upswing, and for the foreseeable future. Your "9 Billion" investment was when your ALPA representatives gave that to Wolfe & Lakefield. This is a NEW company spud as a result of a smaller company getting the $$ to finance an acquisition of the OLD US AIR.

Give Wolfe & Lakefield a call. They may have some spare change in their pockets (or at least lint).

The biggest problem is that you guys are exhibiting the five stages of Kubler-Ross model, but you keep recycling to ANGER & DENIAL.

 

[nevergiveup]

Sooooooo.......Let's fix OUR next contract Reed. The Nicolau seniority list is THE seniority list. Let's get control of our "union". Change the leadership, CBL's and Committee makeup. Get the SHARPEST minds in the NAC and Merger NOW. Get the company to re-visit the closed sections of contract negotiations from 2007-8. Address SCOPE, PAY and other un-closed sections and get this done.

You have to admit the AWA contract is overall SUPERIOR to LOA 93. Presently our NAC is GIVING AWAY TONS OF STUFF THAT THE AWA CONTRACT DOES HAVE....AND FOR WHAT???? One more thing on scope: With the age 65 around the corner and the FACT that there are as many people seeking to do this for a living AND the worldwide demand.....How many regional carriers do you think will actually exist in 10 years?

CB

I'd vote for nIC if it comes with 10 year fences, no furlough, and 240/hr for cap...150/hr for FO.

 

[Res Judicata]

There is a good chance that putting out something that has a chance to pass is the only option. DFR or not. Unless Doug coughs up a lot of money I don't think anything with NIC can pass. If something is put out that includes a small raise, which I think is the best we can hope for from Doug, and is not NIC( not DOH either) , and with somekind of protection for PHX, I think it has a good chance of passing from the east list and the west Captains. Not all the west Captains of course, but enough will take the raise and the guarantee that they wont have to move to the east coast.

IF something like that occurs with the majority of the group both east and west voting for it. The DFR would come. However it seems that such a DFR would have a hard time overcoming the fact that most voted for it.

It is pretty clear we are going nowhere like it stands. If there were not 1700+ retirements on the east in the next 9 years i could see a NIC getting a passing vote. It kind of looks like some middle of the road not DOH and not NIC is the only way to get anything passed.

Now before you yell about me negotiating or whatever, remember what I said earlier about where I stand on the list between widebody or narrowbody. It does not matter in the slightest which way it goes for me. If Tempes offer is enough to get me (and most of the east) to vote for a NIC, that means it is in excess of widebody rates for narrowbody equipment and F/O rates equal to current Capt rates on the east. Anything less than that and I will only vote yes on something that does not include NIC. Neither will the bottom 1/3 of the east list that is stapled in a NIC.

it is very possible that taking a DFR suit is the preferable way to go in the sense that it might be the only way to get a joint contract.

The year 2005 called. They wanted me to let you know that negotiations for a combined seniority list is over. An astonishing number of you apparently didn't get the news.

 

[nic4us]

#### you Brutus. The Nic did not comply with ALPA merger policy, and Prater and everyone else knows it. Prater and the board were too timid to do anything about it, ergo they got shitcanned.

I regards to the Nicolau award "did not comply with ALPA merger policy".

You are mistakenly, yet eerily correct.

The only thing about the Nic that did not comply with ALPA merger policy was Prater's blue ribbon Rice panel. Which resulted in the direct order from the ALPA executive board to submit the Nic to LCC for acceptance.

And look what happened...Prater got shitcanned as ALPA president.

Can't have a freelancing, scab supporting, Continental pilot, holding the president's office and violating union policy, when a DL/NW and UA/Continental merger are on the horizon.

Prater should have lived up to his DFR toward the West pilot group and all the LCC pilots. Then, if the east decided to oust ALPA, at least ALPA would have proven itself to be an organization commited to supporting its membership and having the integrity to live by its own C&BLs, and not the politically driven cesspool of oportunist it has become.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'd vote for nIC if it comes with 10 year fences, no furlough, and 240/hr for cap...150/hr for FO.

D-F-R.

In all likelihood Judge Silver will make that clear enough early next year. USAPA will then have no choice but to negotiate a JCBA using an unmodified NIC list with no other conditions or restrictions. Vote however you like, but negotiating for a modification to section 22 will not be an option. Since 2007 the choice has been LOA93 or the NIC+Kirby and nothing has or will change that. USAPA is compelled by law and perhaps a future injunction to make that choice available for a vote of the MIGS. Individually pilots can vote yes or no, but USAPA cannot obfuscate their responsibility to negotiate in good faith for much longer. The walls are closing in on USAPA's delay and deception strategy and soon we will all know if the rank-and-file pilots will be willing to ratify such a TA to get some long-awaited improvements.

 

[nic4us]

I'd vote for nIC if it comes with 10 year fences, no furlough, and 240/hr for cap...150/hr for FO.

I don't vote......I sue.

You get no vote unless it is Nic inclusive. Further, you get no contract if it dilutes seniority rights.

 

[Keroseneuser]

The year 2005 called. They wanted me to let you know that negotiations for a combined seniority list is over. An astonishing number of you apparently didn't get the news.

Apparantly you didn't get the news that it is no longer 2005. Nobody on the east cares what was happening in 2005 when it comes time to vote.

I am supposedly one of the east guys that "will vote with the west" as several on here have said, but I have laid out what it will take for me to vote yes on a NIC, and I don't see that happening from Tempe. The percentages of no votes only gets higher the farther down the east list you go and the closer to 2013 it gets.

So, barring something like 180 and hour for narrowbody captains and 125 and hour for narrowbody f/o's from Tempe (never gonna happen) How do you purpose to get the majority east to vote yes on a NIC? It will take a LOT of money to get the east to accept the huge hit from NIC. Barring that, there is NO upside to NIC for 90% of the east. For that matter absent large increases, there is really no upside for the west Captains either. A yes from them negates the only protection that PHX has right now as a base.

 

[BLT]

Summary of latest PHL update:

We lost LOA 93.

(now think of something to redirect pilot anger)

The west never supported pay parity.

(there we go. we failed but somehow blamed the west. awesome. we are so smart.)