US Pilots' Labor Thread 4/28-5/5--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[ussnark]

Meanwhile, Parker and Kirby save at least $122 million per year in pilot labor costs while the pilots feud.

But lose some $200 million a year in lost synergies.

 

[electricjet98]

But lose some $200 million a year in lost synergies.

Then maybe it will soon be time to unite and claim what we are owed. But it simply can not happen with the hate mongering displayed by some nameless posters on this site, or even worse, the irresponible representatives in PHL who post devisive material such as this:

Fellow PHL Pilots,

We want to thank you for your phone calls and e-mails indicating your involvement in YOUR Union. We must never forget that collectively we are stronger than any individual. Only by continuing this effort will we persevere. We must recognize that every Pilot on this property, from the most senior to the most junior, has contributed to the continued well-being of our company. The selfishness of a minority cannot be allowed to destroy the careers of the majority of Professionals who have brought us here. As your Reps, we promise never to forget your sacrifices.

 

[hp_fa]

As an outsider, by that I mean not having been a pilot for either airline, I am somewhat pleasantly surprised to see some softening of attitudes in the last few days. Positions have not changed, but perhaps a realization that the trial will not solve the underlying hostility that I had perceived between the East and West.

BTW, every day that I have been in court a company attorney has also been there watching the proceedings and taking notes. I know that the company has more than a small amount of interest in this trial. However the fact remains that an attorney, probably relatively well paid, is spending full work days sitting in court watching the proceedings. I suspect that besides keeping track of the trial so that the company knows where it stands when the trial is over, that it is also assessing and monitoring the amount of divisiveness that clearly exists within the respective pilot ranks.

Let's assess where the parties are right now.

East has lost, and continues to lose, pay parity with the West plus 3%. West continues to lose 3%.

West has lost 175 positions and East has lost 125 positions and an argument can be made that West has shouldered the loss more than East based on the relative sizes and the positions lost.

Both sides are losing money to lawyers that could be, in the long run, spent on other and more productive things. East is paying via USAPA dues and West is paying via contributions and, perhaps, from any judgment it receives in the litigation via the class action provisions. This trial is almost over so waving a magic peace wand would not save much of anything. However, what about the inevitable next steps down the road?

Under the current scenario the respective pilots are paying significant sums of money that could be better spent fighting the company for raises and benefits. The company is actually, in some way, probably happy that the pilots are fighting themselves rather than the company. Ussnark claims that the company's loss due to combined synergies is $200 million. I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I accept it for now as a true statement. Accordingly it can be argued that the company is losing over $75 million a year in this dispute over what it has offered as a raise to pilots vs. the loss in synergies. However, while the company is losing synergies it is probably, in some respect, enjoying the relative calm in it's labor relationship with pilots since they are too busy fighting themselves to be also fighting the company.

USAPA, for good or ill, claims to represent all the pilots on the property. However it has little to no support with the West. So does USAPA attempt to further cram down what will be perceived by the West as a purely East agenda? Also, who actually will represent the West point of view to USAPA? If East pilots, either through USAPA or some other entity, wanted to have a discussion regarding resolving these issues with whom would or should they speak?

Personally I continue to believe that the East folks have a lot of hostility built up from before the AWA folks came on the scene and much of the current situation stems from that. (The events of the two bankruptcies this decade with the pension loss and LOA 93. All of this is happening at a historic downturn and rearrangement of the entire airline industry, which further has clouded the issues.) I also believe that had the Nicolau award been significantly more favorable to the East that both the West would have accepted it (albeit with probably considerable unhappiness) and that ALPA would still be the bargaining agent, which also means that at a minimum there likely would have been pay parity and a pay raise received since 2005.

As I have said in another post, this whole situation is a mess.

 

[electricjet98]

I also believe that had the Nicolau award been significantly more favorable to the East that both the West would have accepted it (albeit with probably considerable unhappiness) and that ALPA would still be the bargaining agent, which also means that at a minimum there likely would have been pay parity and a pay raise received since 2005.

I agree. Of course, that doesn't make it right!

 

[A320 Driver]

As an outsider, by that I mean not having been a pilot for either airline, I am somewhat pleasantly surprised to see some softening of attitudes in the last few days. Positions have not changed, but perhaps a realization that the trial will not solve the underlying hostility that I had perceived between the East and West.

BTW, every day that I have been in court a company attorney has also been there watching the proceedings and taking notes. I know that the company has more than a small amount of interest in this trial. However the fact remains that an attorney, probably relatively well paid, is spending full work days sitting in court watching the proceedings. I suspect that besides keeping track of the trial so that the company knows where it stands when the trial is over, that it is also assessing and monitoring the amount of divisiveness that clearly exists within the respective pilot ranks.

Let's assess where the parties are right now.

East has lost, and continues to lose, pay parity with the West plus 3%. West continues to lose 3%.

West has lost 175 positions and East has lost 125 positions and an argument can be made that West has shouldered the loss more than East based on the relative sizes and the positions lost.

Both sides are losing money to lawyers that could be, in the long run, spent on other and more productive things. East is paying via USAPA dues and West is paying via contributions and, perhaps, from any judgment it receives in the litigation via the class action provisions. This trial is almost over so waving a magic peace wand would not save much of anything. However, what about the inevitable next steps down the road?

Under the current scenario the respective pilots are paying significant sums of money that could be better spent fighting the company for raises and benefits. The company is actually, in some way, probably happy that the pilots are fighting themselves rather than the company. Ussnark claims that the company's loss due to combined synergies is $200 million. I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I accept it for now as a true statement. Accordingly it can be argued that the company is losing over $75 million a year in this dispute over what it has offered as a raise to pilots vs. the loss in synergies. However, while the company is losing synergies it is probably, in some respect, enjoying the relative calm in it's labor relationship with pilots since they are too busy fighting themselves to be also fighting the company.

USAPA, for good or ill, claims to represent all the pilots on the property. However it has little to no support with the West. So does USAPA attempt to further cram down what will be perceived by the West as a purely East agenda? Also, who actually will represent the West point of view to USAPA? If East pilots, either through USAPA or some other entity, wanted to have a discussion regarding resolving these issues with whom would or should they speak?

Personally I continue to believe that the East folks have a lot of hostility built up from before the AWA folks came on the scene and much of the current situation stems from that. (The events of the two bankruptcies this decade with the pension loss and LOA 93. All of this is happening at a historic downturn and rearrangement of the entire airline industry, which further has clouded the issues.) I also believe that had the Nicolau award been significantly more favorable to the East that both the West would have accepted it (albeit with probably considerable unhappiness) and that ALPA would still be the bargaining agent, which also means that at a minimum there likely would have been pay parity and a pay raise received since 2005.

As I have said in another post, this whole situation is a mess.

Well said... can't/won't argue with any of this. It stinks, but we are where we are and East chose to elect anything BUT peacemakers. IMO

A320 Driver B)

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (BLT @ May 4 2009, 10:30 PM) *
If you cannot set aside your differences in the interest of safety, then you are not a professional pilot and have no business being in the cockpit of an airliner.

Well said. It amazes me to see 50 something year olds behaving like freshmen in high school.

I agree completely. Now...kindly explain again, to all reading here, exactly why the west "pilots" routinely deny jumpseat travel to east pilots????

 

[nostradamus]

USAPA, for good or ill, claims to represent all the pilots on the property. However it has little to no support with the West.

Thank you counsel. I rest my DFR case.

 

[N924PS]

QUOTE (BLT @ May 4 2009, 10:30 PM) *
If you cannot set aside your differences in the interest of safety, then you are not a professional pilot and have no business being in the cockpit of an airliner.



I agree completely. Now...kindly explain again, to all reading here, exactly why the west "pilots" routinely deny jumpseat travel to east pilots????

It's not the West pilots at large. Just a few individuals. Same with the East.

An East Captain denied a West pilot a ride from LAS-CLT a few days before Christmas. Hope he got a lump of coal in his stocking.

99% of the pilots are mature enough to put the politics aside and act like ladies and gentlemen, on both sides.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ussnark claims that the company's loss due to combined synergies is $200 million. I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I accept it for now as a true statement. Accordingly it can be argued that the company is losing over $75 million a year in this dispute over what it has offered as a raise to pilots vs. the loss in synergies. However, while the company is losing synergies it is probably, in some respect, enjoying the relative calm in it's labor relationship with pilots since they are too busy fighting themselves to be also fighting the company.

I suspect that $200 million is lost synergies due to separate ops is an order of magnitude high - Parker has claimed $10 million/year but that's probably low.

Whatever the number, and with the caveat that I have no idea what the FA transition agreement allows/prohibits, the company has really only utilized a portion of the synergies available in the pilot's transition agreement. If they choose, they can increase synergy savings significantly - again based only on the pilot's TA and not considering limitations in the FA's TA.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

99% of the pilots are mature enough to put the politics aside and act like ladies and gentlemen, on both sides.

Horse-hockey..and completely fantasized "statistics". All I can say is the only time I tried to ride west metal, I was denied transport...PURELY from being an east pilot, with NO other discussion whatsoever. On the other hand...I've afforded rides to a number of west pilots. Know what you're talking about before talking..."99%" of the west affording jumpseat priveledges = My arse.....I guess I just "got lucky"..and found that only 1 in a hundred west person then? Give it up. Nonsense is nonsense.

 

[N905TW]

99% of the pilots are mature enough to put the politics aside and act like ladies and gentlemen, on both sides.

Finally, something on this board I can agree with!

You are correct PS, and one day this nonsense of East vs West is going to have to stop.

Certain posters on here continue to take great glee in spreading the fear of god into anyone reading this board that pairing a crew with East and West would lead to disaster, or that the planes would never move because neither crew member would talk to each other or be so upset they'd have to call Medlink prior to push.

As one of the West furloughs, I was lucky to snag a flying job with a company where there are many former East furloughed guys. Over the past few months I have flown with probably a dozen former Easties. Did we have lively discussions on this topic? You bet. Did we disagree on certain aspects of what happend? Yep. Did we run the aircraft into the ditch or into a mountain in blind rage towards each other? Hardly.

In a few weeks this court case will be in the rear view mirror, and regardless of the result, we (meaning ALL pilots for the NEW company which just happened to take the OLD USAIRWAYS name) all will need to somehow come together to get contract improvements from a company that so far has been content to sit back and laugh at our expense.

Let us never forget that while we languish on old contracts and work rules, those at the top are getting thier bonuses - and we aren't even putting up a fight.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Horse-hockey..

On the basis of an unscientific sampling of about 0.075% of Captains...

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

99% of the pilots are mature enough to put the politics aside and act like ladies and gentlemen, on both sides.

I haven't observed any less than civil conduct in or around the courthouse either. I think they have shared elevators and not fought about who will push the buttons.

 

[ClueByFour]

Thank you counsel. I rest my DFR case.

You don't get it--the law says USAPA has to fairly represent the west regardless of whether or not they are on board.

 

[EastUS]

On the basis of an unscientific sampling of about 0.075% of Captains...

Jim

True. I suppose I should now make it my life's work to see how many times and by exactly how many west "pilots" I could be rejected by then, before making observations on the obvious. I see your "logical" point For the opposite case = I've never, nor will ever deny any west person a ride....As "unscientific" as my notions there might be; I don't believe it proper for ANY...supposedly "professional pilot" to behave otherwise.

So, in summation = You have no problem with someone acting the part of a total child, versus any semblance of an airline "captain"...so long as the statistical percentages aren't easily subject to immediate graphing?