US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[exB717Flyer]

Okay, was MDA seperate from US Airways or wasn't it? Fact: it was operated by US Airways as a seperate division. The lawsuit alleges despite that it was actually the same as US Airways. I wouldn't call that a strong case. Regardless, expect the case to wind it's way through the system for at least five more years assuming it's funded that long.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

It appears as though the Nicolau Award isn't exactly the "windfall" for the West that the eastyz claim it to be. Evidence, which until now, has been kept secret, is presented here:


Facts that the East doesn't want published.

 

[N924PS]

Worst case, Nicolau has a way to "re-evaluate" this award. Thats a good out for him. We might even "like" a new Nic list.

I doubt it.

Even if Nicolau (if he's till alive when it comes time to do this) places Colello and the other MDA "furloughees" back into the list using his original methodology, it clearly is not DOH/LOS.

And we all know that is all USAPA stands for: DOH/LOS.

After reading the latest CLT update, it is clear to me that the former militant/hard liners are in complete control of USAPA. From the tone of their writings, if you dissent with their opinions, you will be branded a traitor.

It's their airline now. The rest of us are collateral damage.

 

[nic4us]

It appears as though the Nicolau Award isn't exactly the "windfall" for the West that the eastyz claim it to be. Evidence, which until now, has been kept secret, is presented here:


Facts that the East doesn't want published.

Well, there you have it. Several hundred east F/Os were never going to upgrade pre-merger and the Nic does not effect their career expectation at all.

ALPA merger policy does not say "no windfall", it says "avoid a windfall for one group at the expense of the other".

There is no windfall for the West, and even if you believe there is, it is definitely not at the expense of the east. What this report leaves out when it talks about the worst case scenario is a delay of 22 months to Ziegler's upgrade, is that the same 22 month delay is burdened upon the West F/O senior to Ziegler.

 

[Tiger 1050]

It appears as though the Nicolau Award isn't exactly the "windfall" for the West that the eastyz claim it to be. Evidence, which until now, has been kept secret, is presented here:


Facts that the East doesn't want published.

It is simply amazing that the east pilots can't or won't realize that ALPA and USAPA are synonymous. It's the same selfish agenda. This time it's from another part of the family. Still the same family nonetheless... PMI Thuer (like sewer but with a lisp) refuses to let this kind of info out cause it will crush their little rebellion...

 

[cleardirect]

I hear thats all about money, but a monetary award can only happen if ALPA is proven liable.

Did you come to that conclusion all by yourself or did you get some help? Do they sometimes get money even if the defendant is not proven liable? Since usapa has been proven liable of DFR I guess you agree that the west will be collecting some money soon.

If ALPA is liable, best case for West is MDA pilots are added back in the list (any monetary damages already in bank).

Read the complaint. Nowhere does it ask for the list to be reevaluated. How can the court give them something that they are not asking for? Oh that’s right. Judges and arbitrators are telepathic and should just know the answers. Nicolau should have given the east C&R even though they were not asked for. Where is ALPA going to get $175,000,000.00? The members you say. Where is usapa going to get any money for west damages? The members you say.

Worst case, Nicolau has a way to "re-evaluate" this award. Thats a good out for him. We might even "like" a new Nic list.

MDA plaintiffs are not asking for him to re-evaluate the award. Read slowly. But you need to explain what you think Nicolau needs with a “good outâ€￾? You can not possibly believe that he now thinks that he somehow made a mistake and wants to go back and “fixâ€￾ his error. You would not be that naive would you?

Do you think that he believes that he made a mistake during the first award and was going to make it up to the east with this one? You and the east believe with all of your heart that the award is wrong and unfair. Is there anything in this world that will convince you otherwise?

Then what makes you think that Nicolau has any less strongly held belief then he issued a fair and equitable award and did his level best? Why would he want a "out" if he believes that he is correct?

No the current award is the only list that we will ever have. You don’t have to like or dislike it. But it will be the list.

 

[Captain Underpants]

Well, there you have it. Several hundred east F/Os were never going to upgrade pre-merger and the Nic does not effect their career expectation at all.

Well obviously a 58 year old junior F/O would not have upgraded before age 60 retirement and was not expecting to.

Just the Captain years windfall from Nic transfer from West to East is around $600 million dollars with some junior West pilots gaining over 14 total Captain years. That works out to an average loss of $200k per East pilot and an average gain of $350k per West pilot. The gain loss for a pilot under 50 years old could be very well be over $1 million. Of course that doesn't include other losses such as Reserve vs. lineholder, DC plan, and the more valuable than money effect on schedule and lifestyle.

Do the math yourself the data is here:

AAA Merger Committee presentation

Thanks for bringing up the data.

underpants

 

[Megasnoop]

Stall when you have a loser? USAPA seems to have learned from ALPA.

All barbs aside, nic4, this will play out. Your not making any headway at reducing our morale with the endless one-liners. There not enough readers here and we're already committed, as you are, to our own positions. So talk about happy things.

From filing to verdict took 8 months is hardly stalling. We met every time line set. The appeal is another matter. We cant even start until remedy phase is over. My take, the remedy will be USAPA forced to negotiate using Section 22-NIC. We cannot drag our feet or negotiate in bad faith (like demanding $500/hr and 120 days vacation a year). We have to keep the judge informed whats going on. Maybe even be monitored by some pest of AOLs choosing. That could be a yawn not worth finishing off an appeal. All depends on the LOA84 timeline, that might require we keep going with the appeal until we know how LOA84 plays out. A lot of moving pieces here, nic4, so I wouldnt try to simplify this too much.

From the timelines I am seeing Addington will be well over before MDA gets heard.

How? Next MDA most likely November, unless ALPA can come up with another stall. Addington wont be well over until the appeal, if followed to conclusion, is over. Again, too many moving parts for blanket timeline predictions.

Even if MDA wins, and Nicolau revisits the list, east's biggest complaint will not change. A new list will not be manufactured from top down, only the very bottom would be significantlly impacted, if changed at all. My real question to this is there any MDA pilot senior to Colello? If not, even if they are considered active mainline , that does not mean they would be moved above Odell. Re-read the portion of Nic that addresses the east pilot nuetrals objection and why Nic found the way he did for those who had been recalled.

Hard to predict. Opinions are like assumptions, everyones got one. Many senior to Colello. No telling where any of them would end up. Anyway, thats your best case. ALPA Pilot neutrals tend to remain neutral, otherwise they fall off the ALPA gravy train. Even in your best case scenario, they all go above Odell. The number MDA covered I think is in dispute. But with all MDA above Odell, that pushes the bottom, even under NIC, to sooner upgrades.

I am very unfamiliar with the history of the MDA saga, however I will add this. I do not know if there is any legal requirement of a union to have seperate locals for different companies. For example, could not United Mine Workers have a local with some members working for Peabody coal and others working for Phelps Dodge digging copper? Other unions have locals where members are actually performing different jobs. For example, Hotel workers could have some members who are in houskeeping, and others who are front desk staff. My point is , just because you are a member of the CLT LEC does not necessarily make you a mainline USAirways pilot.

Obviously your very unfamiliar with MDA. Even more unfamiliar with how other unions work. You realize that when a GM plant in Detroit closes, their #1 seniority guy cant even bid at the bottom of GM Atlanta plant? He has to reapply for a new job. Rest of your examples show grasping at straws. ALPA negotiated the MDA contract. They forced all U pilots who went to MDA to pay dues or get fired. Going back to the duck. Its a duck.

 

[BoeingBoy]

1) Applicants must be furloughed, wholly owned, or from the street.
who else is there, Jim?

Well, there's obviously active pilots - did you forget them? If the 170 was nothing more than a new addition to the mainline fleet, why contractually restrict who can fly it to APL, CEL, and new hire pilots? Is that how the 190's were handled? The 330's? The 320's?

2) There's the pesky prior sworn testimony on record that conflicts with
your eloquent prose.

And there was sworn testimony in the trial just concluded that "final and binding" only applied to the MC members - can anyone really say that with a straight face? There are people that swear to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" every day then misrepresent the truth on the stand or in depositions. Don't tell me that you're so naive as to believe nobody ever fibs exaggerates under oath.

Mega,

Re-read my earlier post. I certainly talked about ALPA treating the 170 pilots as active AAA pilots who could hold positions on the MEC, etc. I may not have mentioned dues, etc, but that goes with being considered active. Why do you think that the MEC allowed the 170 pilots to hold office, vote, etc? Out of the goodness of their heart?

As I said then, the only remaining defendant as I understand it is the very entity that didn't call the 170 pilots furloughed. Everyone who did consider them furloughed courtesy of the contract language - the MEC, the company, and the majority of the pilot group - is off the hook as far as the MDA suit is concerned. That's what I find most ironic about the suit.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

Well obviously a 58 year old junior F/O would not have upgraded before age 60 retirement and was not expecting to.

Just the Captain years windfall from Nic transfer from West to East is around $600 million dollars with some junior West pilots gaining over 14 total Captain years. That works out to an average loss of $200k per East pilot and an average gain of $350k per West pilot. The gain loss for a pilot under 50 years old could be very well be over $1 million. Of course that doesn't include other losses such as Reserve vs. lineholder, DC plan, and the more valuable than money effect on schedule and lifestyle.

Do the math yourself the data is here:

AAA Merger Committee presentation

Thanks for bringing up the data.

underpants

Ya know what? This whole argument about who upgrades when and how many captain years is just plain stupidity! It's a moot point! Nicolau had to make a decision based on the facts at that time. Claiming attrition is humorous. We could liquidate in the next six months or find ourselves 3X the size we are today in 5 years. NOBODY knows. I don't care what the east THINKS was theirs. They certainly don't care what I think is mine. Nobody out west is gonna buy the "give me a hamburger today and I'll gladly pay you Tuesday" bit either. The list IS fair. The list WILL be implemented. And the EAST will go down in history as one of the most arrogant, self-centered pilot groups our history has known.

 

[cleardirect]

Well obviously a 58 year old junior F/O would not have upgraded before age 60 retirement and was not expecting to.

Just the Captain years windfall from Nic transfer from West to East is around $600 million dollars with some junior West pilots gaining over 14 total Captain years. That works out to an average loss of $200k per East pilot and an average gain of $350k per West pilot. The gain loss for a pilot under 50 years old could be very well be over $1 million. Of course that doesn't include other losses such as Reserve vs. lineholder, DC plan, and the more valuable than money effect on schedule and lifestyle.

Do the math yourself the data is here:

AAA Merger Committee presentation

Thanks for bringing up the data.

underpants

Wow! Pretty colors.

Yawn!!! Old news, means nothing.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Next MDA most likely November, unless ALPA can come up with another stall.

LMAO! You can count on years of stalling.

 

[nic4us]

From filing to verdict took 8 months is hardly stalling. We met every time line set.

How? Next MDA most likely November, unless ALPA can come up with another stall. Addington wont be well over until the appeal, if followed to conclusion, is over. Again, too many moving parts for blanket timeline predictions.

Many senior to Colello. No telling where any of them would end up. Anyway, thats your best case.

they all go above Odell. The number MDA covered I think is in dispute. But with all MDA above Odell, that pushes the bottom, even under NIC, to sooner upgrades.

Obviously your very unfamiliar with MDA. Even more unfamiliar with how other unions work. You realize that when a GM plant in Detroit closes, their #1 seniority guy cant even bid at the bottom of GM Atlanta plant? He has to reapply for a new job. Rest of your examples show grasping at straws. ALPA negotiated the MDA contract. They forced all U pilots who went to MDA to pay dues or get fired. Going back to the duck. Its a duck.

You met every timeline, but asked for more time at each junction. Understandable, I was more refering to east ALPA and now USAPA's tactic of delaying to remain in seperate ops in hopes of capturing what would otherwise be West jobs.

Addington will be over first, because it has already been tried, MDA is at least 5 months off. Once it is tried, if MDA wins, ALPA will appeal, same or longer timeline. You are also assuming the 9th will hear the appeal, they could deny prior to MDA even going to trial.

As I said I am very unfamiliar with MDA. If many are senior to Colello, why were they not recalled to mainline? Why should what amounts to a wholly owned express casrrier be placed senior to Odell? First you say no telling where they would end up and then you say they are all senior to Odell. How does a junior MDA pilot who never flew mainline end up senior to Odell?

Here is what I think I know. If you had a USAirways seniority number, you were included in the Nic. So if you were at MDA would you not have a USAIrways seniority number and been placed accordingly? The whole arguement of wether you were furloughed or not is irrelevant as it did not change your USAirways seniority number and will not get you above Odell, unless your number is above Colello. If this is indeed the case, that MDA pilots have a USAirways seniority number above Colello, I think I agree with you and they should be senior to Odell, but then why were they not given their place according to their USAirways seniority number?

As to other unions, they all work within their own rules. I was just trying to determine if there was any legal obligation for ALPA to have had a seperate LEC for MDA, or if they could have simply retain existing structure because all the players were the same.

 

[hp_fa]

My take, the remedy will be USAPA forced to negotiate using Section 22-NIC. We cannot drag our feet or negotiate in bad faith (like demanding $500/hr and 120 days vacation a year). We have to keep the judge informed whats going on. Maybe even be monitored by some pest of AOLs choosing.

See, we can agree!!! I'm not as sure about the monitoring, but I fully agree with the first two sentences.

I believe the permanent injunction should be fully appealable once issued. What do you think?

 

[toganoflex]

http://www.unbiasedfacts.org/RealConsequencesOfTheNic.pdf

Very good dose of reality.