2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[WeAAsles]

I'm uncomfortable guessing outside of the contracts but I presume that has something to do why AH is wanting to increase the minimums above 56.  One of the things that a union will sell with a Cindy date is that, the union, will be in joint talks, and be in position to secure a joint agreement prior to the expiration of the Cindy dates.  I believe that is a fatal flaw.  Cindy dates give management more leverage as the date is approached and incites management to delay any joint agreement until after it has the liberties to exercise the built in mine fields.  The union will also take a naïve approach and suggest to the members that all the non hubs may cross the threshold if you simply add the AMR jets and US AIRWAYS jets together.  ORD is a hub, and so is MIA, so those two US AIRWAYS stations will be safe.  But when we see the trend caused by the United agreement with Airline Management, we don't see any evidence that totaling flight activity from both separate contracts is wise.  In theory, if you total both sets of flight activity together then you can build a strawman argument that a city, once combined, will be covered.  But that assumes any joint contract will keep the better scope clause, and that management will not 'rightsize' a particular station.   Stations like IND, BNA, RDU, etc would come into play.   It's fun to look at it that way and it does provide an element of peace of mind, and maybe RDU, IND, BNA will meet thresholds, but I'm just uncomfortable making those assumptions by totaling activity and basing it on scope of a particular contract that will not even be in existence when the totaling occurs.  That said, your opinion is certainly just as valid as mine on this.

I like this response Tim. Very well thought out.

I do consider though the part that DP has stated very clearly that he believes this merger will be a lot smoother than the others that preceded it. I think he basically sold Wall Street and the lenders on that promise moving forward and to gain their confidence for further investment in the airline for the future.

Bumps in the road could absolutely occur but I just have a feeling.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I like this response Tim. Very well thought out.

I do consider though the part that DP has stated very clearly that he believes this merger will be a lot smoother than the others that preceded it. I think he basically sold Wall Street and the lenders on that promise moving forward and to gain their confidence for further investment in the airline for the future.

Bumps in the road could absolutely occur but I just have a feeling.

I hope DP comes through.  In any case, there is an element of security working for the number 1 airline and the most profitable, things could have been a lot worse.  And not in any case is anyone talking about pay cuts.  Even though there may be contention on what one member wants over another member, at the end of the day, this merger and the association seems like hitting the lottery when compared to where sAA and sUS were at a few years ago. Union or not, job security is always based on the growth of a particular company.  With a union, the question of "Who's work is it?" can be fought for.

 

[WeAAsles]

I hope DP comes through.  In any case, there is an element of security working for the number 1 airline and the most profitable, things could have been a lot worse.  And not in any case is anyone talking about pay cuts.  Even though there may be contention on what one member wants over another member, at the end of the day, this merger and the association seems like hitting the lottery when compared to where sAA and sUS were at a few years ago. Union or not, job security is always based on the growth of a particular company.  With a union, the question of "Who's work is it?" can be fought for.

Tim did you write this or did you quote mine me?

1000 + 1

 

[700UW]

Maybe if you negotiated a consensual agreement it would have been less bad than the terms imposed. Either way you had your team were ineffective and you defend your position to this day with excuses.

Josh

Maybe you should listen and comprehend the facts, I and others have been over this over and over.
 
We gave the company a complete offer during negotiations that met the "ask" except the pension termination, which we knew the court would do anyhow.
 
The company rejected the offer even though it met the ask as they said "It kept too many people employed and we dont want to manage people".
 
So you are nothing but a liar and a master of misinformation.

 

[DFWFSC]

Management is being very careful how they approach the scope issue. With all the talk about there being a shortage of regional pilots right around the corner, they may have to start adding more mainline flights into some smaller stations and it could have a big impact on scope or trigger restaffing stations...etc. They want to leave some wiggle room.

 

[robbedagain]

josh you need to remember ATL went from an express back to ML city   I do not recall the year but I do think it has since been mainline after the 2008 agreement    

 

[700UW]

He trusted Carr and was manipulated into signing a TA that he didn't even read the language on.  The NC stayed in the back room and the union boss brought in a highlight sheet and had them vote on it, much like what happened at United with our eboard.  These guys are absolutely unaccountable and don't even read the contracts before they vote on a highlight sheet to recommend it to the membership.  Long story short,  after 700 read it, he flipped and decided to vote no because it outsourced his very own job.  But it was too late.

Tim you are nothing more than a pathological liar.
 
Carr had NOTHING to with M&R negotiations and he was never there, we never spoke about and he never consulted me on anything.
 
We were at US Airways Headquarters till 4am in the morning negotiating the night before the abrogation, with Roach even present with us.
 
They threw the final offer at us at 10pm when we broke for dinner and came back at 11:30pm at night and stayed till 4am going back and forth with the company on the final offer.
 
We got back to US Airways Headquarters at 9am and  we wrote up a cover letter, an explanation of the Final Offer and I assembled the complete Final Offer word for word, there was no highlight sheet only, the only highlight sheet is what the company put out.
 
Everyone left US Airways Headquarters on Friday Morning after the abrogation in court, Giamarcco and I stayed back, I personally contacted every single Grievance Committee Chairman and got their addresses, I then took the final offer and all supporting documents to Kelly Press in Maryland, and they printed up the Final Offer packet and we had it FedExed to every single Chairman with enough copies for every member at their location.
 
So please explain to me and the board since you werent there how I was told by Carr about anything!
 
Tony and I flew out from DCA back to CLT that evening and we even ran into Lakefield and I had a nice long talk with him and I was totally responsible for the early out offer for maintenance as Hemenway didnt and wouldnt offer to maintenance yet they offered it to every other group in the company.  After my talk Glass and Hemenway called me on Monday and the early out was made available to maintenance.
 
So mr I want to be AGC, why are you lying and making things up that never happened?
 
I was there as were others, yet you werent, so you are a liar and I will make sure it is well known.
 
And once again I was a stock clerk when I left US, not Utility, so once again please explain how I outsourced my job when I didnt and we NEVER agreed to a new CBA, it was a final offer from the company.
 
You lie so much you cant tell reality from the truth.
 
If anyone votes for you they are ignorant.

 

[Kev3188]

I'm uncomfortable guessing outside of the contracts but I presume that has something to do why AH is wanting to increase the minimums above 56.  One of the things that a union will sell with a Cindy date is that, the union, will be in joint talks, and be in position to secure a joint agreement prior to the expiration of the Cindy dates.  I believe that is a fatal flaw.  Cindy dates give management more leverage as the date is approached and incites management to delay any joint agreement until after it has the liberties to exercise the built in mine fields.  The union will also take a naïve approach and suggest to the members that all the non hubs may cross the threshold if you simply add the AMR jets and US AIRWAYS jets together.  ORD is a hub, and so is MIA, so those two US AIRWAYS stations will be safe.  But when we see the trend caused by the United agreement with Airline Management, we don't see any evidence that totaling flight activity from both separate contracts is wise.  In theory, if you total both sets of flight activity together then you can build a strawman argument that a city, once combined, will be covered.  But that assumes any joint contract will keep the better scope clause, and that management will not 'rightsize' a particular station.   Stations like IND, BNA, RDU, etc would come into play.   It's fun to look at it that way and it does provide an element of peace of mind, and maybe RDU, IND, BNA will meet thresholds, but I'm just uncomfortable making those assumptions by totaling activity and basing it on scope of a particular contract that will not even be in existence when the totaling occurs.  That said, your opinion is certainly just as valid as mine on this.

 
 

I like this response Tim. Very well thought out.

+1 here as well.

The idea of combined flight activity clearing the threshold is nice, but as noted doesn't factor in any "harmonizing" of the network that may come. The company may decide to flow some traffic over one hub or another and drop some flights. They may also decide that 1 757 beats 2 A319s, and so on.

These are just made up examples, but they also represent a very real possibility, and a very real threat to a station staying open if you guys allow the threshold to be raised- and that's departures only. Have they even talked about (69) seat counts? How 'bout ancillary work?

 

[cltrat]

josh you need to remember ATL went from an express back to ML city   I do not recall the year but I do think it has since been mainline after the 2008 agreement    

robbed it has been after 08 not sure the exact year though

 

[737823]

Maybe you should listen and comprehend the facts, I and others have been over this over and over.
 
We gave the company a complete offer during negotiations that met the "ask" except the pension termination, which we knew the court would do anyhow.
 
The company rejected the offer even though it met the ask as they said "It kept too many people employed and we dont want to manage people".
 
So you are nothing but a liar and a master of misinformation.

 
No surprise the IAM kept too many people employed, headcount is the driver of dues revenue.  So by giving them a contract meeting the cost guidance without cutting headcount means you did indeed give more in concessions to produce headcount heavy proposal that would cost out the same as a less concessionary agreement with fewer headcount. Either way you and your team failed the membership.
 
Josh

 

[700UW]

Tim when the IAM agreed to outsource lav service did the contract go to an IAM vendor like they did with United Express IAD and NWA with Air Willy?

Josh

The master of misinformation and a liar speaks again.
 
The IAM never agreed to outsource anything, the CBA was abrogated, how many times do you have to be told that?
 
Yet you still lie about it!
 
In the hubs the cleaning and lavs were outsourced to Vendors, CLT nor PHL vendors are IAM.
 
Other stations the ramp took over the cleaning and the lav service.
 
Once again dont let the facts get in your way!

 

[737823]

josh you need to remember ATL went from an express back to ML city   I do not recall the year but I do think it has since been mainline after the 2008 agreement    

 
Robbed ATL is one of the 17 mainline sAA stations.  I pulled the schedules some time ago and ATL, SAT, STL, and TPA are lingering on the 15 flight threshold that would trigger on the Cinderella date. 
 
Josh

 

[700UW]

Despite what 700 says the formerly unorganzed sCO employees aren't happy with the IAM.
 
Josh

More lies from you.
 
I have never stated on how PMCO employees feel about the IAM.
 
You really are a pathological liar.

 

[737823]

The master of misinformation and a liar speaks again.
 
The IAM never agreed to outsource anything, the CBA was abrogated, how many times do you have to be told that?
 
Yet you still lie about it!
 
In the hubs the cleaning and lavs were outsourced to Vendors, CLT nor PHL vendors are IAM.
 
Other stations the ramp took over the cleaning and the lav service.
 
Once again dont let the facts get in your way!

 
Another failure on your part. Weren't you in utility/lav service?  Funny you skip over my point about UAX at IAD, why hasn't that work gone to mainline UA ramp with the new agreement?
 
Josh

 

[cltrat]

 
 
If anyone votes for you they are ignorant.

the same could be said about anyone voting for Bartz or Klemm