2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[Tim Nelson]

Crazy indeed. Yet that is the company's vantage point going into negotiations. Total cost of the entire compensation package when comparing one work group to the other.  The fact it's a comparison of a bankruptcy contract vs. a profitable airline's section 6 proposal doesn't factor into their equation. Additionally, I believe it doesn't factor into the NMB's vantage point either. That is why the company feels very comfortable the NMB will not release. The company is confident the NMB will view their proposals as reasonable movement and prolong the negotiating process. As long as they look at negotiation proposals in this light; they will always believe their proposal is fair. It's the total compensation package folks... not just hourly wage. With that being said... who has better language concerning sick time, vacation time, employee medical contribution rates, scope/job protection language and  pension benefits? Everyone needs to understand this is the battle environment our NC is in. Right or wrong; this is the mindset of the company they are negotiating with. This is the mindset of the company we work for. This is the company's mentality our NC faces in negotiations. The best we can do, as members, in the meantime, is remain united behind our NC and show some solidarity!
LOCK and LOAD!     

There are things in the sAA bankrupt contract that do actually cost more than the sUS contract.  The IAMPF for one is less costly on the company than the 401k at sAA.   Although I like the idea of a 5.5% match on total earnings [$1.27 hr], and more since it also includes overtime in total earnings,  the sUS get less.  40% of sUS gets only half of what the company puts in the sAA retirement with a .65 per hour shake which is appalling. 
 
Amazingly, as United coughed up their industry leading health care, the sUS health care now is the best if one is full time. But not by much when considering 40% of our workforce has to pay double payments because of the part time status.  I myself would prefer sAA sick pay since it is full sick pay, albeit 4 less days accrued a year.  Most folks who use 9 sick days a year will find themselves on the discipline ladder so I like the sAA full sick pay over sUS half pay.  Holidays are another wash. I think sAA gets only 5 holidays but they get holiday premium pay which sUS does not.  sUS gets 7 holidays but no premium pay for working them. I like the wage progression at sAA of 9 years as opposed to the sUS 11 year progression.  Toss in the $1.50 lead pay at sAA as opposed to the $1.01 pay at sUS, and the September wage of $23 over the $20.57 and it appears to me that DP has some fuzzy math.
 
Just a straight base wage is a difference of $5,000. Toss in the lead pay difference, and since most of the overtime at sUS is 1.5, as well as all the OT at sAA, that overtime sAA overtime is also more expensive in total.
Again, I think management is doing fuzzy math.  But whatever the case, CB is correct, we are negotiating outside of bankruptcy plus management isn't apparently anywhere close to being fair.  The risk for management is to stall out the merger. We do have merger leverage on the union side.  I mean, nobody has to agree to bring both groups together in a joint contract unless things are squared up.  Even if single carrier is ruled, have to hope that the IAM stays in stand alone talks or this will be another exercise in disaster.

 

[john john]

There are things in the sAA bankrupt contract that do actually cost more than the sUS contract.  The IAMPF for one is less costly on the company than the 401k at sAA.

Is there a cost associated with future funding of the frozen AA define pension plan

 

[WeAAsles]

Is there a cost associated with future funding of the frozen AA define pension plan

 
The Transport Workers Union, which represents American’s mechanics and other ground workers, described the compromise as a victory. But the biggest winner may be the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which had previously calculated that it would bear losses of roughly $8 billion if it had to take on responsibility for the three pension plans.
“It is great progress,” the pension agency’s director, Joshua Gotbaum, said in a statement. “Bankruptcy forces tough choices, but that doesn’t mean pensions must be sacrificed for companies to succeed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/business/american-airlines-parent-says-it-will-freeze-most-pension-plans.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Tim Nelson]

Is there a cost associated with future funding of the frozen AA define pension plan

Dunno.
 
But considering 2014, I think a sUS would much rather make the $23, have the extra week of vacation, full sick pay, holiday premium pay, and a 5.5% 401k on all earnings, over what the current sUS ramper gets hosed on. Anyone saying that sUS is ahead of sAA is smoking and needs to put the bong down.  sUS contract BLOWS BIGTIME and is the worst in the industry, worse than sAA.  Bottom line.  It's completely shameful that management doesn't advance our sUS members, but until then, hold back the merger as best we can. Most folks feel so much disrespect and insult that they don't even care what logo is on the plane anyways.

 

[roabilly]

Crazy indeed. Yet that is the company's vantage point going into negotiations. Total cost of the entire compensation package when comparing one work group to the other.  The fact it's a comparison of a bankruptcy contract vs. a profitable airline's section 6 proposal doesn't factor into their equation. Additionally, I believe it doesn't factor into the NMB's vantage point either. That is why the company feels very comfortable the NMB will not release. The company is confident the NMB will view their proposals as reasonable movement and prolong the negotiating process. As long as they look at negotiation proposals in this light; they will always believe their proposal is fair. It's the total compensation package folks... not just hourly wage. With that being said... who has better language concerning sick time, vacation time, employee medical contribution rates, scope/job protection language and  pension benefits? Everyone needs to understand this is the battle environment our NC is in. Right or wrong; this is the mindset of the company they are negotiating with. This is the mindset of the company we work for. This is the company's mentality our NC faces in negotiations. The best we can do, as members, in the meantime, is remain united behind our NC and show some solidarity!
LOCK and LOAD!     

Cargo,
 
Your observation is probably 100% correct. Of course, the Company will always attempt to get the best deal possible for themselves. After all, they are a business, and Contract Negations are just another segment of the entire business model.
 
Herein, lays the dilemma for both Fleet, and the Company... if the Company wishes to move forward with creating a harmonized combined entity, that maximizes synergies, they will NEED Labor Agreements! Now, CB, Prez, and all the others have all said that the current proposal is insufficient, and it is yet another BK agreement in value.
 
OK... having said all of that, what happens next? Does the company insist on attempting to impose another BK agreement on PMUS? Or... do they realize that at some point they will have to bargain agreements that exceed the BK years? Or... do they go ahead with several more years of Labor friction, and a possible strike involving two of the biggest, and most vital Unions Groups? I guess we will see in very short order...
 
I look at this way, sooner or later, even with all of the bureaucracy, arduous scheduling, and arcane legal hoops that the RLA, and the NMB impose on everyone to jump through... there will be a FINAL resolution! The question is... does this final resolution come sooner or later? Will it come before Transition Talks, thus setting the bar for the AA side to seek parity with our Section Six achievements? Will it come after a strike, or a release? Will it come in a few weeks... a few years? Either way, the Company has to eventually offer contracts that reflect current Industry performance, and profits!
 
The Company will have to make a business decision real soon. Postponing the inevitable may prove to be more costly to them than moving forward... it’s that simple!

 

[roabilly]

 
The Transport Workers Union, which represents American’s mechanics and other ground workers, described the compromise as a victory. But the biggest winner may be the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which had previously calculated that it would bear losses of roughly $8 billion if it had to take on responsibility for the three pension plans.
“It is great progress,” the pension agency’s director, Joshua Gotbaum, said in a statement. “Bankruptcy forces tough choices, but that doesn’t mean pensions must be sacrificed for companies to succeed.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/08/business/american-airlines-parent-says-it-will-freeze-most-pension-plans.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Everyone needs to realize just how legally corrupt Corporate Bankruptcy proceedings are. Case in point-- dumping pension obligations onto the US Government (PBGC) is a travesty. It gives the Companies a free ride, and the pensioners only receive a portion of their original benefits!
 
Corporate Bankruptcy has evolved into nothing more than a business “tool” with the help of Corporate Lobbyist that have been successful in getting legislation passed that perpetuates the use of the laws as a weapon against labor!

 

[700UW]

Actually the PBGC gets equity in a company to make up for the pension short fall, ie. US had to give the PBGC stock upon emergence from bankruptcy to terminate the pension.
 
Also any company that contributes to a DBP is "taxed" and it goes to the PBGC to help fund its operation.

 

[roabilly]

Actually the PBGC gets equity in a company to make up for the pension short fall, ie. US had to give the PBGC stock upon emergence from bankruptcy to terminate the pension.
 
Also any company that contributes to a DBP is "taxed" and it goes to the PBGC to help fund its operation.

Thanks 700... i'm on a rant... at least the taxpayer is not stuck with the whole bill...
 
My concern is that as more, and more Companies use this tool, there will be less of them actually paying this tax to supplement the program. As we know... hardly anyone actually gets real DBP's anymore, so there has to be less revenues going into the PBGC in terms of taxes.

 

[WeAAsles]

What do you think will happen when the PBGC winds up needing a taxpayer bailout? Dimes on the dollar will become pennies on the dollar as the American people are not going to want to completely fund something they themselves never had.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/pension-benefit-guaranty-corp-running-34-billion-deficit/2012/11/16/7c1a54da-303a-11e2-9f50-0308e1e75445_story.html

 

[BLUTO]

HEY NIELSON
R DOOSH HOWZ
TH #'S LOOKN
4 CRUNK N
ASS-SUCTION?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Harry
I can tell you that they are hiring more people for clt as fast as they can. Also we will be working the AA bag belt also which will be additional head count. And all the work in Team 6 is additional head count. So your buddy that's telling you this info, isn't up to date on the latest.

Talking politics in DCA breakrooms Mark?

 

[737823]

HEY NIELSON
R DOOSH HOWZ
TH #'S LOOKN
4 CRUNK N
ASS-SUCTION?

Y DO U KEEP POSTIN
LIK TIS? WHUT IS
UR PROBLM?

Josh

 

[roabilly]

Y DO U KEEP POSTIN
LIK TIS? WHUT IS
UR PROBLM?

Josh

It seems that you too enjoy, and admire the format Bluto uses... I see it from YOU... more than I do him! Now, go crawl back into cranium of your cyber twin. You know who I'm speaking of... the one that you are joined at the Cerebral Cortex with...

 

[737823]

It seems that you too enjoy, and admire the format Bluto uses... I see it from YOU... more than I do him! Now, go crawl back into cranium of your cyber twin. You know who I'm speaking of... the one that you are joined at the Cerebral Cortex with...

I only post like that in response to him.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

so you feel you gotta post the same way he does...   just the same way you have to post  to agitate 700 etc   man talk about needing help