2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[cltrat]

+1
 
In negotiations, 700 and the current crop believe in 'give and take'.  Such things are not existent in negotiations, other than 'cost neutral' negotiations.  The IAM at wimpinsinger has a course on concessionary negotiations.
 
In bankruptcy, it was all about 'giving'.  Ole AH wasn't too fond of 'Give and Take".  700 got pantzed and didn't even read the language until it was too late.
 
Now, negotiations need to be about "Take".  The giving is over with.  We shouldn't have to give something up to gain scope, for instance.  These knuckleheads have had us in neutral for almost 20 years with their dopey cost neutral 'give and take' style.  Give = bankupuptcy.....Take = $Billion profits
 
700 is a nice guy but truly doesn't comprehend negotiations as most of these guys with little to no education or skill set.

yep so here's  the question "If" there is no AMR match till 2015 "if" there is no enhanced scope and for me the ultimate slap in the face "if" % down thru the years increase is not equal then where in the hell is the take part?

 

[roabilly]

yep so here's  the question "If" there is no AMR match till 2015 "if" there is no enhanced scope and for me the ultimate slap in the face "if" % down thru the years increase is not equal then where in the hell is the take part?

OK... I told you what I would do "IF" Tim is right... what will YOU do if he is wrong?

 

[rockit2]

700,
Is your life so boring that you have to continually come on this site and be one of the boy's. Do you not have any friends you can call on the phone? If the judge did abrogate a contract for maint. , then your conscience should be clear, but why are you here. You have nothing in this, your not even employed by the company. You seam to me as a simple mindeD "F" THAT HAS NO LIFE.
Now you and Josh move on.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
Whatever you say company boy/Mr. Giveaway. Afterall its "only" been nine years since US was in bankruptcy and this is the first section 6 since 1999 so I won't let the facts get in my way!
 
Josh

FOUL: This is an unfair accusation to be given to anyone who had to negotiate with a BK gun being held to the head as you well know. Whatever the terms of the BK agreement were had to be lived with until the end of the new CBA. Your section 6 started 2 years ago and under the RLA guidelines it's very difficult to come up with a swift resolution to acquire a new CBA. First you have to bargain to the point where you can seek assistance from the NMB and then you are under there jurisprudence to time frames to meet and try and negotiate further. As for being released by the NMB that is another matter entirely.

As for the worst example of how long it can take, read about AMTRAC. They took a total of 7 years to come to terms. 

 

[737823]

Your TWU made out much better than the IAM weAAsles.  I know 700 will say the IAM CBA is better, truth is they both suck but the TWU still is much better than the IAM.  There should be no alliance, fleet at combined carrier should be TWU.
 
Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

Your TWU made out much better than the IAM weAAsles.  I know 700 will say the IAM CBA is better, truth is they both suck but the TWU still is much better than the IAM.  There should be no alliance, fleet at combined carrier should be TWU.
 
Josh

I'll defend my union against all comers but I also will tell it like it is. The TWU had a greater advantage against AA then the IAM did against Usair. AA went into BK with over 4 Billion in the bank and the modifications needed were not as severe as what was needed at US.

The dynamics were very different.

Let's also not forget that we took MAJOR concessions back in 03 as well. So essentially we went through 2 BK's the same as you guys did.

I also prefer the idea of the Alliance over slogging it out against each other. The problem I see with it is mostly getting all those who will be in charge of it to endorse it wholeheartedly. The ego's need to be left at the door if it's truly going to maximize the potential it can have.

 

[737823]

I'll defend my union against all comers but I also will tell it like it is. The TWU had a greater advantage against AA then the IAM did against Usair. AA went into BK with over 4 Billion in the bank and the modifications needed were not as severe as what was needed at US.

The dynamics were very different.

Let's also not forget that we took MAJOR concessions back in 03 as well. So essentially we went through 2 BK's the same as you guys did.

 
TWU agreement is still better, AA TWU still has cargo and lav service, the IAM gave those away as gifts to the company.  Sure they kept Roa's boys in catering, but how many flights that USAIR operates actually have catering?  If the IAM's actions at United are any indicator they will go for the lowest common denominator and outsource lav service and cargo, maybe catering too but is not like its that many jobs (dues) to protect.  All gifts to the company.  sCO cargo was profitable for the company, yet the IAM rolled over and Rich Delaney signed a letter of agreement selling out those jobs.
 
Josh

 

[WeAAsles]

 
TWU agreement is still better, AA TWU still has cargo and lav service, the IAM gave those away as gifts to the company.  Sure they kept Roa's boys in catering, but how many flights that USAIR operates actually have catering?  If the IAM's actions at United are any indicator they will go for the lowest common denominator and outsource lav service and cargo, maybe catering too but is not like its that many jobs (dues) to protect.  All gifts to the company.  sCO cargo was profitable for the company, yet the IAM rolled over and Rich Delaney signed a letter of agreement selling out those jobs.
 
Josh

The IAM is a phenomenal union and from the things I've seen them have to do and go through in the airline industry have done a fantastic job with a horrible set of circumstances. Deregulation set the momentum on a downward spiral and Sept 11 put the final nail in the coffin to get to the bottom of the heap.

You're also very much barking up the wrong tree if you think I'll jump into the very silly game of I'm better than you, or my house is prettier than yours. Wrong cat jack.

If I could sit down with BOTH contracts and compare the "Total Costs" my guess is that they would come out pretty equal. The pie would wind up being the same size. Be that as it may.

I'm only a High School grad. The average High School grad makes about $12 per hour. Man do I and you guys make A LOT more than that with pay and benefits. WHO made that happen? With or without concessions due to NO fault of their own.

The International Association of Machinists and The Transport Workers Union!!!!!!

 

[WeAAsles]

 
If the IAM's actions at United are any indicator they will go for the lowest common denominator and outsource lav service and cargo, maybe catering too but is not like its that many jobs (dues) to protect.  All gifts to the company.  sCO cargo was profitable for the company, yet the IAM rolled over and Rich Delaney signed a letter of agreement selling out those jobs.
 
Josh

sCo employees did it to themselves by not having a Union or a CBA to protect them from the ax when it was a swingin. I'm sorry to say that to the decent former Co readers on here. Without that UAL IAM negotiated contract they would have had nothing. No options, nothing.

Don't let that reality hit you on the bum on the way out.

 

[cltrat]

OK... I told you what I would do "IF" Tim is right... what will YOU do if he is wrong?

simple I'll say he was wrong, I don't bow at the altar of Nelson like you seem to think. I do know that info he had before the UA agreement was pretty spot on.

 

[WeAAsles]

simple I'll say he was wrong, I don't bow at the altar of Nelson like you seem to think. I do know that info he had before the UA agreement was pretty spot on.

More than likely Tim is correct and has some info from the inside. But it doesn't matter because the little bit he's saying doesn't paint the whole picture. Remember he's running a personal campaign to get votes. Would that campaign be helped if he knew or informed of any good items he may have heard about? Nah.

IF something comes out this week wait for the FULL details. Don't let anyone sway you with the Fox news doom and gloom headlines. Read the fine print, discuss what it means and THEN make your decision.

 

[737823]

sCo employees did it to themselves by not having a Union or a CBA to protect them from the ax when it was a swingin. I'm sorry to say that to the decent former Co readers on here. Without that UAL IAM negotiated contract they would have had nothing. No options, nothing.

Don't let that reality hit you on the bum on the way out.

 
sCO passenger service as unorganized before the merger and there was no contracting out of passenger service jobs.  Really speaks volumes to the newly organized when they are forced to join the IAM after spending decades in their career unorganized and find out they have to move to another city or be without a job.  Ramp voted in IBT just before the merger.  The IAM was the single biggest beneficiary of this election, they got to collect dues from day one and administer the IBT contact, otherwise the dues collection wouldn't have commenced until 10/2013 with the new agreement.  CO management did move to outsource a number of stations before the election but you are dead wrong saying cargo or passenger service was outsourced. Those two were outsourced with the approval and facilitation of DL 141.
 
Josh

 

[roabilly]

More than likely Tim is correct and has some info from the inside. But it doesn't matter because the little bit he's saying doesn't paint the whole picture. Remember he's running a personal campaign to get votes. Would that campaign be helped if he knew or informed of any good items he may have heard about? Nah.

IF something comes out this week wait for the FULL details. Don't let anyone sway you with the Fox news doom and gloom headlines. Read the fine print, discuss what it means and THEN make your decision.

Correct! For ALL the "gloom and doom" of the UA agreement... it was overwhelmingly passed by the Membership!

 

[robbedagain]

Which is why all the more important reason every line has got to be read in the contract.   Now on the other hand... if... as Tim says the kind of contract that is to supposedly come out  with the kind of language Tim says it wld have,  then by all means it should be shot down with a Tomahawk Crusie missile with a loud NO Vote.  

 

[roabilly]

Which is why all the more important reason every line has got to be read in the contract.   Now on the other hand... if... as Tim says the kind of contract that is to supposedly come out  with the kind of language Tim says it wld have,  then by all means it should be shot down with a Tomahawk Crusie missile with a loud NO Vote.  

You are absolutely 100% correct Robbed-- The Membership has the FINAL say on ANY agreement! No Negotiations Committee can RATIFY a Tentative for you... ONLY the Membership can... that’s why it’s called “collective” bargaining!
 
Collectively, the MAJORITY of the Membership must vote in favor of any agreement before they have to live under it! If it sucks... you vote it down... how much simpler can that be?