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luvthe9 said:
Sent: 1/17/2014 7:18:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: After the Silver Ruling
For those of you who "believe" that USAPA loses all representational rights if and when APA becomes the certified bargaining agent for all of us you might wish to read what Judge Silver read and the corresponding case law.
I'll post the links but the important part is that the MOU controls who represents "the parties" going into it which is APA and USAPA. Reading section 26 of the MOU and corresponding case law it becomes legally clear that Agency Law is the controlling law and McCaskill-Bond leaves APA, AMR and the USAPA merger committee to finish what is already memorialized in the MOU.
Here is what Judge Silver READ (starting on page 33):
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/labor_law/2012/03/railway_airline_labor_law_committee_midwinter_meeting/mw2012rla_jermanjoshi.authcheckdam.pdf
Here is Thomas v. Republic Airways Holdings, Inc.:
http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20FDCO%2020120305528
By way of example:
QUOTE
"Thus, sections 3 and 13 of the CAB's labor protective provisions in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger became statutory law.
The Midwest/RAH merger closed on July 31, 2009. The Frontier/RAH merger closed on October 1, 2009.
The unions representing the pilots of the six airlines formed merger committees to negotiate an agreement with RAH to resolve the issue of seniority integration in accordance with sections 3 and 13 of the labor protective provisions enacted by the McCaskill-Bond Amendment and provided in the collective bargaining agreements. Those negotiations resulted in an agreement, effective November 3, 2009, entitled Section 13(Dispute Resolution Agreement (Agreement)." UNQUOTE
In short they negotiated a controlling AGREEMENT similar to OUR MOU.
Here are two examples explaining the Law of Agency (just to refresh memories):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_agency
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/agency
If you READ THE MOU USAPA will NOT lose its right under the MTA to complete the process outlined under the Law of Agency as outlined in 5. 6. 10.f 10.g & 26. through 29.
QUOTE
"5. US Airways, and its successors, if any, shall continue to recognize and treat with USAPA as the representative of the pilots employed by US Airways until another representative for the pilot craft or class is certified by the National Mediation Board (the "NMB"). Subject to the provisions of Paragraph 27, negotiations to convert this Memorandum and the MTA into the JCBA and any implementation or other interim agreement, if any, shall beconducted with USAPA and APA jointly, until such time as one union is certified by the NMB to be the collective bargaining representative of the combined pilot craft or class. At that time, the duly-certified representative shall have exclusive authority to negotiate on behalf of the pilots with respect to the JCBA. It is the Parties' intention that the JCBA shall replace any and all prior collective bargaining agreements for USAPA; however, for APA, the JCBA shall be an amendment to the MTA.
6. During the period US Airways is obligated to bargain with USAPA, it will provide information requested by duly authorized representatives of USAPA's Negotiating Advisory and Merger Committees that is reasonably related to the Merger, subject to the execution of standard confidentiality agreements by USAPA and/or affected individuals upon US Airways' request. US Airways will similarly provide such information on such conditions to APA. Notwithstanding the foregoing, US Airways shall continue to supply information pursuant to Attachment M of the Basic East Agreement in matters unrelated to the Merger.
10f. A Seniority Integration Protocol Agreement ("Protocol Agreement") consistent with McCaskill-Bond and this Paragraph 10 will be agreed upon within 30 days of the Effective Date. The Protocol Agreement will set forth the process and protocol for conducting negotiations and arbitration, if applicable, and will include a methodology for allocating the reimbursement provided for in Paragraph 7. The company(ies) will be parties to the arbitration, if any, in accordance with McCaskill-Bond. The company(ies) shall provide information requested by the merger representatives for use in the arbitration, if any, in accordance with requirements of McCaskill-Bond, provided that the information is relevant to the issues involved in the arbitration, and the requests are reasonable and do not impose undue burden or expense, and so long as the merger representatives agree to
appropriate confidentiality terms.
10g. This Memorandum is not a waiver of any argument that participants may make in the seniority integration process. Nor do the provisions of this Memorandum constitute an admission as to the appropriate allocation of flying following the expiration of the protections in Paragraph 8 of this Memorandum, or the manner in which the respective pre-merger carriers would have operated in the absence of a merger, or the job entitlements or equities that arguably underlie the construction of an integrated seniority list, or for any other purpose. This Memorandum may be offered into evidence or shown to a mediator as background information and to describe the actual operations of the separate carriers prior to expiration of the protections in Paragraph 8 of this Memorandum.
26. APA shall file a single carrier petition with the NMB as soon as practicable after the Effective Date, when APA determines that the facts support the legal requirements for the filing of a petition but in no event later than four months after the Effective Date. If and when the NMB makes a single carrier finding, the single carrier acknowledged by the NMB and the certified representative shall be governed by this Memorandum.
27. If and when the NMB makes a single-carrier finding, the organization certified to represent the pilots of the single carrier, the single carrier acknowledged by the NMB and the certified organization shall promptly engage or re-engage in negotiations to achieve a JCBA to be applicable to thecarrier that will be the product of the Merger. In the event that such negotiations are not completed within 30 days of the NMB's certification, New American Airlines will offer final and binding interest arbitration under Section 7 of the RLA, and the organization will accept such proffer, to resolve once and for all the terms of the JCBA. The arbitration decision shall be issued no later than 60 days after the close of the 30-day negotiation period. A panel of three arbitrators led by Richard Bloch shall serve as the arbitrators for this process. If Arbitrator Bloch declines to serve in this capacity or is unable to resolve the parties’ dispute, the parties shall select another arbitrator. The arbitrator’s jurisdiction and award will be limited to fashioning provisions which are consistent with the terms of the MTA, including provisions which implement the terms of the MTA or facilitate the integration of pilots under the terms of the MTA. The arbitrator’s award specifically shall adhere to the economic terms of the MTA and shall not change the MTA’s Scope terms (Paragraph 25 of this Memorandum) or the modifications generated through the process set forth in Paragraph 24 of this Memorandum.
28. US Airways and USAPA agree to be bound and abide by the arbitration decision contemplated by Letter of Agreement 12-05 of the 2012 CBA. Nothing in the MTA shall modify the decision of the arbitration panel thereunder.
29. Attachment C summarizes the timelines prescribed by this Memorandum for the creation of the MTA, JCBA, and integrated seniority list and shall not prevent the Parties from developing the JCBA earlier." UNQUOTE
I have posted here what the LAW says. Unfortunately, Judge Silvers "dicta" through all of this has been the driving force behind the FUD.
DO NOT FALL FOR IT!
In sum total, whether APA survives as the representative or USAPA, both THE COMPANY AND THE SURVIVING REPRESENTATIVE ARE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THE MOU.
FEEL FREE TO PASS THIS ALONG TO OUR APA BROTHERS AND SISTERS
=
The utter desperation is hilarious.
But, what you missed above Pizza is the fact that MOU language is not "law", what Judge Silver says is. Not trying to help you understand what awaits, just pointing out your misunderstanding as to what is "law" and what is not.

Remember: WIDE RANGE OF REASONABLENESS
 
nic4us, on 17 Jan 2014 - 11:36 AM, said: Yes it was quite the miracle that after failing to simply look out the window and avoid a catastrophic encounter,
cltrat said:
think you could have pulled it off there super pilot?
 
 
I'm surprised you would even dare ask that of any obvious AWA "Ace", especially since his superhuman vision, reflexes and abilities apparently even prevent bird strikes! It goes without saying that if those amazing talents still didn't prevent a ditching, that he'd at least have obviously had no trouble walking on the water afterwards. 😉 Sheesh folks!; you just can't make this sort of "stuff" up! Any who can evidence such unimaginable arrogance demonstrate only their level of "maturity" and the fact they've yet led a very sheltered and fortunate life aloft.
 
nic4us...Someday at least TRY to grow up.
 
prechilill said:
The utter desperation is hilarious.
 
 
Nothing could ever climb up the hilarity index further than the current west fantasies of loving and nurturing embracing to shortly come forth from the APA in abundance, and most especially to "you'se" little group alone. 🙂
 
Bill Brasky said:
Pretty hysterical to watch the west meltdown!  You guys and your childish musings make it really easy to dislike you.
 
Yep, but heck; they're just dancing their same BS we've seen for years now.
 
Ames said:
Not trying to convince anyone of anything.  Be sure to read the APA updates.  Self explanatory.
 
So which have the greater force of law?  MB law, the MOU, a judge's actual Rulings,....or the APA's updates? 😉
 
I'd say good luck with the current crop of "spartan" fantasies, but if they EVER proved true in the real world; "you'se" and all the pilots of US would be badly treated, to say the very least, and the true comedy here's that "you'se" are apparently so incredibly entrenched in some "righteous" little Fantasyland as to be completely oblivious to that. Sigh! It nowadays amazes me that some of "you'se" can even eat with forks (or sharp instruments of any kind) without harming yourselves....Seriously.
 
Recall results by base published today.
 
luvthe9 voted with the majority of the West pilots, every other base rejected his message.
 
I think that the push by some individuals to release the results by domicile was an attempt to show that the domicile officers that embraced this fiasco had some support.  I guess the results puts that thought to rest, at least on the East side.
 
If anything, it shows the unity of the westies, and just how close we came to having their disciples become President and Vice President thanks to some power grabbers.
 
Metroyet was literally crapping himself over his decision to stay on the west crew of the USS Nicolau which just took a bunch of detonations from the fish launched by USS USAPA Silver decision. Wave goodbye Kev! Taking your chances with your TWay boys was prudent.
 
Westoffs are coming unglued in the WAKE of the Silver decision.
The only wide body Prechilil will see is in the mirror.
Nic4us is seriously screwed now.
God I miss Cleardirect. I honestly would love to hear the crying jag.
 
Res Judicata said:
Impossible to know yet. You'll have to go to court and see if they violated their DFR after a ratified JCBA. Your new union is free to amend the MOU at any time. Remember?
Your twin metroyet seems to know, that's why I asked him.
 
Time to go back to the records. Are you westies that came out of the woodwork as confident as you were before, or do you think there might be a few turns left on the road?
 
Past posts:
 
Clear and Res:
 
cleardirect, on 31 December 2011 - 11:34 AM, said:


I think what the west is saying the seniority fight will be over by April. Once Silver rules that should be the end. The company will point to the court and say the court said. an appeal is not going to matter. Once the company makes up their mind and it will time to move towards a contract or merger. If there is a merger the company is going to say the seniority dispute is over so investors don't worry.

An appeal does not matter. Even if the court says not ripe or you can do something other than the Nicolau They can still stand on the Nicolau. they need to move forward and are not going to wait much longer. So yes the seniority issue will be over by April. The usapa leadership issue should be over by April too.”
 
“You're wrong. This will move through Judge Silver's court pretty quickly. The union controlled by the East will get its a$$ handed to it, refuse to accept the ruling, appeal, wash rinse spin. It's not the courts that's the problem. It's not the West that's the problem. And dare I say it's not even the company that's the problem.
 
“By April, USAPA's already immensely deep hole they're in is going to get immeasurably deeper. They can either accept the ruling and move on with a nic inclusive contract or they can appeal and waste another year at poverty wages. I don't care either way. USAPA holds NO CARDS here and the contractual delays are crushing the East...now some of you nut jobs are flying out to phoenix to embarrass yourselves at the PHX crew news like that bible thumping, incoherent nut case.

Less than two weeks away to Watch USCABA get destroyed in court. Can't wait.”
 
 
Res:
[SIZE=10pt]"You'll be working under a Nic. inclusive joint contract by next Christmas.

”MARK MY WORDS!!
[/SIZE]
 


[SIZE=10pt]Res Judicata...a thing already decided.” That was on 11/2011![/SIZE]

 

Res:
“True that USAPA may attempt to fight the importation of Addington evidence but every indication is the Judge will allow it. You guys have a very different legal team moving fwd. and they seem to be focused on cleaning up the Mess $e$ham left you. It wouldn't surprise me if USAPA doesn't fight the importation.  I won't go into detail, but I'm getting the April time frame from folks who have intimate knowledge off all the moving parts to this. West Legal, East, (new) Legal, Company Legal, and the work habits of Judge Silver.  Once she starts a case, she stops everything until it's finished. Luckily, thanks to Cleary's moronic illegal job action and the accompanying Injunction, the case now has her attention. This will move very quickly after Dec. 1st and the ball will be dropped in the company's court where they will act sooner rather than later. This has gone on long enough."
 
 
Res:
By "over" I mean the legal noose will be fully clamped around USAPAs neck and their feet are fully off the ground. The majority on the East will not entertain years more abuse for a handful of angry FO's. They let you drive the ship the last several years and you guys buried it in the ground. Even if under appeal I expect the company to come up with a contract that will pass 51% and do what they can to force a vote on it. The BPR is already under tremendous pressure to get a contract. When Kasher fails and Silver hangs liability on the company and they refuse to entertain DOH, the BPR will either acquiesce to the majority or be thrown out. The AFO's will be fully unable to stop the momentum towards getting OFF LOA93 ASAP when those two pieces fall into place.

That will be by this April. The first contractual vote...NIC Inclusive...will pass 85%”
 
 
Ames:

”Well said. I, too, will go on record to say that the seniority fight will be over upon Judge Silver's ruling. There is no doubt the east will continue to stamp their feet, hold their breath, and cry but the fight will be over. Tantrums will continue but they will be totally impotent.”
 
Pre:
 
[SIZE=12pt]“Ripeness is a given- all parties of interest except one think so.  
Injunction issued by July
POR August 31
West pilots take 330 captain bids in Fall.
USAPA gone by December
A few disgruntled AFO easties try to sue the APA and the company- case goes nowhere.  Eventually, interest wanes as the AFOs retire, see the futility in their efforts and realize they need to purchase a small piece of land with a trailer on it to afford retirement.
A sad ending for such a bitter group”
[/SIZE]
 
Pi brat said:
Time to go back to the records. Are you westies that came out of the woodwork as confident as you were before, or do you think there might be a few turns left on the road?
 
Past posts:
 
I think I've got even all that beat. prechilled from December of 2007: "Ho Ho Ho! St nic is coming to town!" 🙂 The actual probability of any event ever occurring in reality is inevitably and inversely proportional to the degree of "spartan" surety shown here. 😉
 
Pi brat said:
Time to go back to the records. Are you westies that came out of the woodwork as confident as you were before, or do you think there might be a few turns left on the road?
 
Past posts:
 
Clear and Res:
 
cleardirect, on 31 December 2011 - 11:34 AM, said:


I think what the west is saying the seniority fight will be over by April. Once Silver rules that should be the end. The company will point to the court and say the court said. an appeal is not going to matter. Once the company makes up their mind and it will time to move towards a contract or merger. If there is a merger the company is going to say the seniority dispute is over so investors don't worry.
An appeal does not matter. Even if the court says not ripe or you can do something other than the Nicolau They can still stand on the Nicolau. they need to move forward and are not going to wait much longer. So yes the seniority issue will be over by April. The usapa leadership issue should be over by April too.”
 
“You're wrong. This will move through Judge Silver's court pretty quickly. The union controlled by the East will get its a$$ handed to it, refuse to accept the ruling, appeal, wash rinse spin. It's not the courts that's the problem. It's not the West that's the problem. And dare I say it's not even the company that's the problem.
 
“By April, USAPA's already immensely deep hole they're in is going to get immeasurably deeper. They can either accept the ruling and move on with a nic inclusive contract or they can appeal and waste another year at poverty wages. I don't care either way. USAPA holds NO CARDS here and the contractual delays are crushing the East...now some of you nut jobs are flying out to phoenix to embarrass yourselves at the PHX crew news like that bible thumping, incoherent nut case.
Less than two weeks away to Watch USCABA get destroyed in court. Can't wait.”
 
 
Res:
"You'll be working under a Nic. inclusive joint contract by next Christmas.
”MARK MY WORDS!!

 


Res Judicata...a thing already decided.” That was on 11/2011!

 

Res:
“True that USAPA may attempt to fight the importation of Addington evidence but every indication is the Judge will allow it. You guys have a very different legal team moving fwd. and they seem to be focused on cleaning up the Mess $e$ham left you. It wouldn't surprise me if USAPA doesn't fight the importation.  I won't go into detail, but I'm getting the April time frame from folks who have intimate knowledge off all the moving parts to this. West Legal, East, (new) Legal, Company Legal, and the work habits of Judge Silver.  Once she starts a case, she stops everything until it's finished. Luckily, thanks to Cleary's moronic illegal job action and the accompanying Injunction, the case now has her attention. This will move very quickly after Dec. 1st and the ball will be dropped in the company's court where they will act sooner rather than later. This has gone on long enough."
 
 
Res:
By "over" I mean the legal noose will be fully clamped around USAPAs neck and their feet are fully off the ground. The majority on the East will not entertain years more abuse for a handful of angry FO's. They let you drive the ship the last several years and you guys buried it in the ground. Even if under appeal I expect the company to come up with a contract that will pass 51% and do what they can to force a vote on it. The BPR is already under tremendous pressure to get a contract. When Kasher fails and Silver hangs liability on the company and they refuse to entertain DOH, the BPR will either acquiesce to the majority or be thrown out. The AFO's will be fully unable to stop the momentum towards getting OFF LOA93 ASAP when those two pieces fall into place.
That will be by this April. The first contractual vote...NIC Inclusive...will pass 85%”
 
 
Ames:

”Well said. I, too, will go on record to say that the seniority fight will be over upon Judge Silver's ruling. There is no doubt the east will continue to stamp their feet, hold their breath, and cry but the fight will be over. Tantrums will continue but they will be totally impotent.”
 
Pre:
 
“Ripeness is a given- all parties of interest except one think so.  
Injunction issued by July
POR August 31
West pilots take 330 captain bids in Fall.
USAPA gone by December
A few disgruntled AFO easties try to sue the APA and the company- case goes nowhere.  Eventually, interest wanes as the AFOs retire, see the futility in their efforts and realize they need to purchase a small piece of land with a trailer on it to afford retirement.
A sad ending for such a bitter group”
Merely Google a Mark C Doyal if you want to see some talk about truth.
Res Judicata has an unbelievable internet legacy of insanity. Forever
Only Cap'n Aux eclipses the rest of these idiots. Check his website. This guy thinks he is something extremely special. Looks the same as 50 thousand other pilots around the world to me. Not to special Cap'n Aux. He, is unique.
 
EastUS1 said:
nic4us, on 17 Jan 2014 - 11:36 AM, said: Yes it was quite the miracle that after failing to simply look out the window and avoid a catastrophic encounter,
 
I'm surprised you would even dare ask that of any obvious AWA "Ace", especially since his superhuman vision, reflexes and abilities apparently even prevent bird strikes! It goes without saying that if those amazing talents still didn't prevent a ditching, that he'd at least have obviously had no trouble walking on the water afterwards. 😉 Sheesh folks!; you just can't make this sort of "stuff" up! Any who can evidence such unimaginable arrogance demonstrate only their level of "maturity" and the fact they've yet led a very sheltered and fortunate life aloft.
 
nic4us...Someday at least TRY to grow up.
you're right East I just wasn't thinking
but I have a good excuse I work mostly wide bodies these days so I never get to interact with them.
 
cltrat said:
you're right East I just wasn't thinkingbut I have a good excuse I work mostly wide bodies these days so I never get to interact with them.
Appears it will be another 10 yrs before you do.
 
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