A contract for US FAs must be completed prior to any new merger deal.

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

700 - For a hard core unionist you seem to put up a lot of resistance to having our local presidents voice their opinions. This does not seem in character for someone who would like to see transparency for the rank and file in the "Process".

Some of our LECPs have not been shy about their views prior to this latest T/A. Why is it too much to ask for an opinion NOW?

 

[700UW]

Thats is what the roadshows are for.

 

[737823]

I am not an AFA member, I was an IAM Mechanic and Related and on the NC during the second chapter 11.

If you read the boards you would understand that, but its easier for you to attack behind a keyboard than to get involved and educate yourself, just like the post you did to sparrowhawk, let me go post it.

Clearly you were an ineffective negotiator, look at all the concessions management extracted from the IAM at USAir. How many jobs were cut? USAir M&R is lagging the industry by a wide margin, has significant outsourcing and minimal job protection. As Bob said the IAM was too busy giving management what they wanted (followed by TWO bankruptcies) when they started the post 9/11 concessions train 2002. That's what Bob and Tim have said and I'll defer to what they say they're both respectable union leaders. Rather than lying down and rolling over you should have stood up for the profession and craft.

Josh

 

[usfliboi]

Did you come of your meds?

Zombies?

Seriously, you need to call the EAP.

Seems to be you have a personal vendetta against Terry and others, there is more to this story, why dont you come clean and tell the boards the truth and show us what is behind your hatred.

Hopefully by now you and others understand what I meant by watch and learn when the last ta was voted down... The new one is virtually the same but a tossed salad... Now what oh mighty one? What should the poor rank and file do now that nothing new here? A few taken from there a litte tossed there? Amazing that you or anyone else thought there would be a substantial difference in the two agreements.. Now we are around 3500 out of pocket and very wittle to show for it.... Hate to say "I told you so" but there it is

 

[700UW]

Clearly you were an ineffective negotiator, look at all the concessions management extracted from the IAM at USAir. How many jobs were cut? USAir M&R is lagging the industry by a wide margin, has significant outsourcing and minimal job protection. As Bob said the IAM was too busy giving management what they wanted (followed by TWO bankruptcies) when they started the post 9/11 concessions train 2002. That's what Bob and Tim have said and I'll defer to what they say they're both respectable union leaders. Rather than lying down and rolling over you should have stood up for the profession and craft.

Josh

First of all I was one member of a committee, do you not understand that we never reached an agreement, there seven of us on the NC.

Lets see the IAM is the only union on the property that has a pension.

I voted no on the final offer, do you not understand our CBA was abrogated in court?

Once again, you have no idea of what transpired, we gave the company a complete CBA that met their ask, they refused it as they said it kept too many people on the payroll and they didnt want to manage workers.

Once again you post misinformation, Bob even said the TWU at AA started the concessions at AA in 1983.

How many times are you going to post lies?

And how many times does it have to be explained to you that by law the IAM and every union on the property had to negotiate concessions under Section 1113 C?

You are a piece of work, posting misinformation and lies constantly and you never learn even though you are shown to be wrong each time.

 

[700UW]

Actually Josh, US can only outsource 50% of heavy maintenance dollars, it is audited every month.

US is in Section 6 negotiations currently and will be getting a raise and have a pension and make more than AA's mechanics currently.

US does more in-house heavy maintenance than CO, UA, WN and DL.

Tim respectable? That's the funniest thing I have read, he got his ### handed to him in the DL elections, finished last place. Go read the fleet board.

And once again, you have to hijack a thread and you still post wrong information.

Dont let the facts get in your way.

 

[737823]

First of all I was one member of a committee, do you not understand that we never reached an agreement, there seven of us on the NC.


I voted no on the final offer, do you not understand our CBA was abrogated in court?

Thanks for proving my point. Clearly your negotiating committee was ineffective if you couldn't reach an agreement with management and as a result had steeper concessions imposed through abrogation.

Once again, you have no idea of what transpired, we gave the company a complete CBA that met their ask, they refused it as they said it kept too many people on the payroll and they didnt want to manage workers.

No surprise here, the only thing the IAM wants to ensure is people stay on the payroll since more employees=more members=more dues flow. The IAM like other unions is a business and more members to sell out just like the TWU. A real union would stand a hardline on concessions and protect jobs that were worth saving. As Bob has said there comes a point where you offer so much in concessions its not worth saving the positions unless of course there is an inherent incentive for union leadership to do so. Guess the boys' needed to buy new Cadillacs this year and take their trips to Vegas on members dime.

Once again you post misinformation, Bob even said the TWU at AA started the concessions at AA in 1983.

Link please. Bob said the IAM started the post 9/11 concessions train (emphasis) in 2002. Guess you didn't read my post we're talking about nearly 20 years later. If you go into negotiations thinking the nature of the business and need for concessions 20 years back is germane to this discussion no surprise you couldn't reach a tentative agreement.

Once again:

Yea, we can look and see what a great job they did at USAIR, the IAM started the concessions train in 2002 by opening up their contract to supposedly avoid BK, they gave the company everything they wanted, the company filed, then went back for two more rounds of concessions in BK, then they helped NWA bust AMFA only to be rewarded by being decertified when the owners of NWA sold the company to Delta.

The IAM abandoned their members at TWA. The IAM had a successorship clause but abandoned it rather than risk being screwed out of money TWA owed their pension plan and lease payments for an engine they owned.

I once had a high opinion of the IAM, they have negotiated many good contracts over the years but for the last ten they have been in a downward spiral.

http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/50215-aaapfa-negotiations/

How many times are you going to post lies?

And how many times does it have to be explained to you that by law the IAM and every union on the property had to negotiate concessions under Section 1113 C?

You are a piece of work, posting misinformation and lies constantly and you never learn even though you are shown to be wrong each time.

Standard response and attack whenever someone doesn't agree with you or criticizes the IAM even in the slightest.

Josh

 

[700UW]

First of all the CBA was abrogated, the judge held the ruling in abeyance as the members voted on a final offer that we tweaked until 4am in the morning at CCY and the members ratified it. This was in US' second chapter 11 filing,

Second we gave them a full and comprehensive CBA that met their financial ask, do you understand that concept? It had nothing to do with dues money, it was trying to save as many jobs as possible so a worker wouldnt be laidoff, that is a union's responsibility, none of us on the NC cared about dues flowing, we cared about not exposing the membership to financial harm.

Third, when a company files chapter 11 and files a section 1113 motion a union is bound by law to negotiate with the company, ALPA, AFA and the TWU also negotiated concessions. And ALPA gave concessions before US filed chapter 11 in the first case. Is that too hard to understand since it was explained to you over and over and over?

The IAM M&R voted down concessions in the first chapter 11 case and then we voted again and it was ratified. Every other union gave concessions without voting anything down. Then right before Christmas Dr David Bronner the head of RSA who was US DIP financier threatened to liquidate the company unless ALL the unions gave more concessions.

At NWA the IAM all ready had the ancillary duty language in the CBA, if they refused the work, an employee would be discipline up to termination. No IAM member fixed nor overhauled a plane, so mr I think I know it all explain how parking, pushing, airstarts and deicing broke AMFA at NW?

See Joshie, I lived it at US, you are a banker, you think you know it all and I have proven you wrong over and over and over, yet you continue to lie and post misinformation.

 

[737823]

Maybe the IAM should stop lying:

We are familiar with the many lies by the IAM about AFA, our Contract, our leadership and our democracy during this representation election, but now their lies and deceit have expanded about a sister Union. On May 31st, the IAM sent out a campaign message that stated “Japan Federation of Labor endorses the IAM in the representation election for Flight Attendants” and included a short video of the Chairman of the Union making a statement in Japanese about supporting the IAM. This was an underhanded dirty trick by the IAM.

This is just one of the many examples where the IAM has lied. And, it is shameful that the Machinists would be so deceitful as to try to trick a sister Union who has only ever shown solidarity to United workers.

This example may be applied to every single IAM mailing or communication in circulation. The IAM does not have the structure, the resources, the experience or the ability to represent Flight Attendants as AFA can and will continue to do. AFA’s campaign has been focused on the depth and breadth of our Union and the future of our careers. The IAM’s negative, deceitful campaign is an insult to the intelligence of Flight Attendants and therefore we have not focused our campaign on combating the repeated lies. But this goes too far and Flight Attendants outside of Narita do not generally know about the good relationship AFA has maintained with the JLU.

AFA has a seniority merger policy in black and white that protects every Flight Attendant’s bidding seniority. Our policy is proven. The IAM has changed its story on seniority 3 times and there is no policy with their Union. Seniority stays with us the rest of our careers. We can’t put our future in the hands of a verbal promise that’s constantly changing.
On February 24th in Houston IAM Grand Lodge General Vice President Robert Roach told Flight Attendants, “The Union alone does not get to make the list. The company has to be a part of that process. They have all the information – they are part of all this stuff together. They have to agree to the list as well.”

The International Association of Machinists (IAM) has filed charges against the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA) alleging flagrant and repeated violations of the National Mediation Board (NMB) rules, polices and procedures by AFA and United Airlines.
The issue of representation is behind us. With a margin of over 2,000 votes for AFA, the result was decidedly in favor of our Union and this latest step to divide Flight Attendants is deplorable. Flight Attendants continue to make clear to us they wish to move forward. The resounding sentiment from our Flight Attendant community is that representation is decided and they want us to focus our efforts towards negotiating a Contract sooner rather than later. We have heard and are clear on the direction you wish us to focus our efforts; and will pursue that course with vigor.
Instead of now working together to promote the interests of workers and Unions, the IAM chooses to continue their strategy of division and intimidation. While disappointing, it is not surprising based on their conduct in the recent election. AFA will respond to these allegations directly to the NMB, even while we continue to move forward and advance the cause of United Flight Attendants Our focus remains on continuing to leverage our energy and momentum in aggressive pursuit of an expedited negotiations process.

This what your union brothers and sisters had to say about the IAM. Clearly the negotiations weren't successful.

How is the IAM doing financially following the decertifications at CO and NW?

t may be that the Machinists are projecting their own financial concerns, as the IAM has lost hundreds of thousands of member in recent years. As recently as 2008, IAM Grand Lodge Vice President Robert Roach warned of “the real possibility of bankruptcy for our Union.”
So not only is AFA a financially strong Union, our dues money comes back to us at all levels, to advance our issues.

Without a new dues structure that increases revenue, the IAM may be forced to merge Locals and Districts, reduce
or eliminate programs that enhance representation of our members, close and sell the William W. Winpisinger
Education and Technology Center and face the real possibility of bankruptcy for our Union.

http://www.goiam.org/uploadedFiles/Dues.Restructuring.07.11.08.pdf?LangType=1033

Josh

 

[700UW]

Gee Joshie, cant debate the facts?

Those are opinions not facts, glad to see you hijacked another thread and you cant refute the FACTS I have provided.

Go back to stealing a little old ladies house.

Come back when you can debate with facts and stick to the topic at hand.

By the way Joshie your link is four years old and none of that transpired and the IAM is sound financially, gee you make this way too easy!

And to the FAs on here, I apologize for his behavior and attacking the IAM, I cant just sit back and let him post lies.

 

[BungeeJumper]

Full Text of Tentative Agreement has been posted by OurAFA.org

http://ourafa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/FA-single-doc-081312.pdf

 

[737823]

Gee Joshie, cant debate the facts?

Those are opinions not facts, glad to see you hijacked another thread and you cant refute the FACTS I have provided.

Not opinions, it's from the AFA and quotes attributed IAM senior leadership. Is it not true the IAM has lost hundreds of thousands of members over the years? Is it not true that the IAM doesn't have a straight record on protecting seniority? Did the IAM not engage in dishonest tactics during the UA election?

Josh