A Time And A Place Fo Everything

[Vortex Ring]

RDM, could be, you never know. I was flying Twin Hueys and we visited the Universal hangar while we were in Goose but we had very little free time, we actually had a very busy exercise. One of the extremely few times in my military career where I flew a 100 hour month.

V/R, what is wrong with night flying? Why not fly revenue at night. If it's done night VFR with horizons etc, night is not scary at all. Besides these days with the advances in NVG and technology, why not use it for commercial use and generate revenue. Once again I'm just stirring your minds for feedback to learn more and not, I say again, not criticizing.

 

[Big Duke 6]

:wacko: I don't know if you have read Vortex, but apperantly some people have problems slinging in the daytime let alone at night. In 8000+ hrs I have yet to meet a client that couldn't wait till morning, that includes SAR missions. It comes down to simple economics, the amount of time involved in training crew, having the appropriate amendments to your Ops manual, and having a A/C that qualifies for night flight slinging operations according to CARS is uneconomical. Poise that agianst the amount of actual revenue and high exposure to risk, a company would have to do a tremendous amount flying to keep the shareholders and underwriters happy. I realize that our military is not under the same budget constraints as in the civlian market place. However we are not trying to supply ammo, and medical support to our troops which, may or may not be under fire. As the the title of this forum suggests. There is a time and place for everything.

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Ringer there is nothing wrong with flying at night, but you cannot fly a single engine at night for revenue. Nor can you fly a twin engine at night for revenue unless it is on an approved transport canada IFR route...dems da laws! and like I said, I don't fly for free... :unsure:

 

[407 Driver]

One good reason (??) for night slinging was many years ago in the Beaufort Sea....it was night all the time in the mid winter months, so the only way to get the job done was to night-sling. Okie and Bow used 212's, maybe even a 61? No, I never did any ...too young for that

 

[touchdown]

Having been in Vortex Ring State twice when I was learning long line, and seeing it from the ground once, I feel it's an appropriate lesson for all of us at an early point. Of course this should be after a pilot has the "feel" to sense impending VRS and correct accordingly. Before that all the regular cautions about the conditions needed to set it up should be stressed, stressed, and stressed. Demonstrating it is hard on A/C and I'm not sure it's recommended by the manufacturers. Having taught both long line and night slinging (short and long) I know how easy it is, even for an experienced driver who's working his butt off concentrating on something new, to miss the cues. This is particularly true during long line and night because a lot of normal cues are missing. If I think that my "nagging" voice saying "watch the descent, feel it" saved one butt I'm happy. The heavier the load and heavier the machine the more likely you are to create this condition but we all know it can appear in all single bladed rotor systems with or without a sling load. Learn it early, discuss it with students early and sit back and envy those guys on the Ka32 and BV107.
Night slinging is not as common now but someday the arctic will spool up and we could find ourselves humping loads in January again. That would be cool.

 

[Vortex Ring]

BD6 and Touchdown....

........thank you both for the info. Does make sense and I certainly understand and agree for most jobs. The Arctic environment is what I had always wondered about though. It just seemed like it would be beneficial to sling at night when it's dark six to seven months of the year.

:wacko: :blink: As for incidents in Vortex and in our military flight safety newsletters I think we're all in the same boat so to speak..... :huh: We've had our share of challenges too..

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Not to be the devils' advoacte here but if demonstrating vortex ring is hard on an aircraft then I sure as hell don't want to be flying in it!!! :blink: :blink: :blink: That aircraft should not be type certified in canada if thats the case. Next thing you know there will be an AD that says you cannot practice hydraulics off... :wacko:

In production longlining (which are the only times i have gotten into vortex ring!) if your "rockin' you are on the edge of the "buffet" all day long! I have never experienced vortex ring with a full load / max gross load - always with a light load or the empty hook! And I have NEVER lowered the pole to get out of it! Which is the "proper" training school correction. Go figure...

 

[Big Duke 6]

TD I'm not sure what your telling your students, but wth 5000+ longlining VRS has nothing to do GW, It does however have alot to do with rate of descent and relative wind. It's usally experienced with a light load or empty hook and high rate of descente usually downwind. Again I'm in total agreement with Vert-Ref. B)

 

[VERTICAL REF]

I paid Big Duke money to say that...

Checks in the mail feller!

 

[twitch]

I'd be careful with the statement that gross weight has nothing to do with VRS there Big Duke, that could be missleading. High GW sure can make things worse and it certianly helps induce the required rate of decent of 70 to130% of the velocity of the downward flowing air to get the whole thing happening? Maybe just maybe we are more carefull of the ROD and relitive wind when heavy? :blink:

twitch

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Hey twitch, has been a while!

I agree that high or max gross weight does not help in the recovery from VRS, but just because you are at max gross weight does not mean you are more susceptible to suffer from VRS. My rate of descent is determined by "disc loading" and can be high or low regardless of the all up weight of my aircraft!

I most certainly will agree that my "disc loading" is more precise at MGW. To remind myself, I do believe we need a minimal forward speed, high rate of descent and a high power or collective setting. At MGW we already have a higher power or collective setting but we are usually at a more mininmal rate of descent as well! You are adding to one but taking from the other... :huh: yes? no?

 

[touchdown]

<_< While GW is not one of the conditions for VRS, I stand by my point that it's a factor in setting yourself up. "twitch" is right there. The more air you disturb ie. heavy load/heavy a/c with high pitch, the closer you get to a wild ride if you fulfill the other requirements. The statement can be made that "a logging machine rides this thin line closer than a helicopter with paying passengers on a normal approach". The operative word is "normal" of course. I've found that as a pilot transitions to heavier equipment he may need cautioning about increased hazard. What you can do in a light single will burn you in a medium or heavy. Why? Weight, momentum. and the amount of disturbed air below.
Not wanting to date myself too much I must admit that my VRS experience was flying chokers with a B47. Can't get much lighter than that. :wacko:
No not that old.

 

[CHEVY II]

And now...for some even more enjoyable reading :blink:

http://www.enae.umd.edu/AGRC/Aero/vring.html

http://www.copters.com/aero/settling.html

http://www.r22helicopters.com/tech15.html

Can't forget this one...
http://www.rotorshop.com/right-yaw.html

And this one ??? :wacko: :blink:
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR9596/BAPSDF...bs/G190002.html

 

[407 Driver]

As Duke mentioned, I too have seen VRS more often with low GW's. I suppose that the difference is one is normally more careful and "loaded up" on approach with a load Vs an empty hook. Touchdown, I don't normally rely on guages to tell me when VRS is imminent, as my head is generally out-the-widow, I rely on the feeling...
Touchdown, you may be old, but I bet your B47 wasn't quite as early as that one in the pic

 

[VERTICAL REF]

Disc loading and its corellation to MGW are a very close relationship. I have never flown heavies but from the 47 to the 212, I have never experienced more VRS than in an as350B, which has the highest disc loading of any helicopter i have flown. Chokers in a 47, hehehe, i was just glad when the damn thing got off the ground! B)