AA in talk with airbus for 100 narrow body aircraft

[damajagua]

[post='Related News: Europe  · Transportation  · U.S. American In Talks for 100 Airbus Planes By Andrea Rothman and Susanna Ray - Jun 22, 2011 3:07 PM ET ']Related News:
Europe  · Transportation  · U.S.
American In Talks for 100 Airbus Planes
By Andrea Rothman and Susanna Ray - Jun 22, 2011 3:07 PM ET
[/post]

 

[WorldTraveler]

So much for all that conventional wisdom that said that AA would never fly Airbus aircraft again or that having two types of the same type of aircraft is inefficient and thus would never be done by an airline that carefully manages it fleet needs, as AA clearly does - not to be confused with DL and UA have multple duplicated fleet types via mergers.
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Maybe AA is just pulling Boeing's chain but maybe Boeing miscalcluated how badly the market needs a new 737 and Airbus will pick up another couple thousand 320 orders while Boeing figures out how to adapt to the market...
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Boeing had darn well be working the AA case really well.... but it is doubtful they can come up with further discounts for AA large enough to offset the savings that AA will get by dumping a bunch of M80s for 320neos instead of wiating for Boeing.

 

[FWAAA]

Slow down, WT. All we have right now are two un-named people who claim that AA is talking to Airbus. My guess is that similar discussions occur every June at the annual air shows. The article itself even confirms that the board of directors wouldn't consider it until next month.

Perhaps you might want to wait for an actual order announcement before crowing with your "I told you Sos?"

 

[WorldTraveler]

I never said that AA is ordering anything yet but there are people who said that AA would never even consider Airbus aircraft.
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What seems clear is that AA is committed to upgrading its fleet; whether they stick with Boeing and their redesigned 737 remains to be seen but it isn't at all hard to believe that AA has significant enough needs to update its fleet that it can't push its M80 fleet for another decade - and continuing to buy current generation 737s which will not be competitive with either the 320neo or the eventual rebuild of the 737 is not realistic. The only likely way that Boeing will hold onto AA as a customer is if Boeing reengines the 737; but they likely also strategically need to replace the 737 and develop an all new 150-200 seat aircraft... Boeing has so far not indicated it is willing to do both.
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I have no doubt that Boeing will eventually build a superior replacement to the 737... the Boeing narrowbody fuselage has been around since the beginning of the jet age.
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Whether AA can wait for Boeing is apparently the $8 BILLION question... i doubt seriously that AA will wait and I also doubt that Boeing will settle for a simple reengine of the 737 when they have a much larger opportunity to rebuild the entire Boeing narrowbody product line.
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Given that DL, UA, and WN all have significant fleet replacement needs in the next 10 years, Boeing's response to AA's needs has huge implications for the US industry - which is only a subset of the larger global industry.
It is also possible that AA could go for the C series - which would involve challenging some of the same logic about mixed fleet types, although the C series does fit sizewise smaller under the AA Boeing fleet than the A320 family.
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We'll wait and see what AA does but I still have a feeling that some of those longstanding notions about AA, Airbus, and the "purity" of having a single type for each class of aircraft are about ready to get blown out of the water.
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And you can bet your bottom dollar that Airbus is salivating at the prospect of painting "American" on the side of a bunch of brand new 320s.

 

[PhatSappy]

Tails fall off Airbus. No thanks!

 

[care2purchasefood?]

If AA does buy those Tonka Toys aka Airbus, it will probably be the A321 and A350. The A321 is similar in size to the 757 and the A350 is similar to the 767. Since the 787 is so delayed, AA might be truly looking to go get a foreign hunk of junk.

AA in talks with Airbus

Additional story on AA in talks with Airbus

 

[787nightmare]

Think I just read where the A320neo won't be ticketed until like 2015 or 16. Saw another news clip today at work with Qatar Chief and Albaugh all but publicly announcing the declaration of the new 737(think at Paris airshow...Qatar chief called it 797, whatever... 🙄 ). It, IMO, will strongly resemble the looks of the 787 in styling. As does the Bombardier C series entry.
Personally, I'd rather see AA buy the C series plane for short haul 150+/- seat class than go A320.

On another note, saw that link to that PW1000 geared turbofan engine that's going to be used for the A320neo. Very interesting...way to go Pratt!

 

[Bob Owens]

Think I just read where the A320neo won't be ticketed until like 2015 or 16. Saw another news clip today at work with Qatar Chief and Albaugh all but publicly announcing the declaration of the new 737(think at Paris airshow...Qatar chief called it 797, whatever... 🙄 ). It, IMO, will strongly resemble the looks of the 787 in styling. As does the Bombardier C series entry.
Personally, I'd rather see AA buy the C series plane for short haul 150+/- seat class than go A320.

On another note, saw that link to that PW1000 geared turbofan engine that's going to be used for the A320neo. Very interesting...way to go Pratt!

More mechs and pilots needed.

 

[787nightmare]

If AA does buy those Tonka Toys aka Airbus, it will probably be the A321 and A350. The A321 is similar in size to the 757 and the A350 is similar to the 767. Since the 787 is so delayed, AA might be truly looking to go get a foreign hunk of junk.

AA in talks with Airbus

Additional story on AA in talks with Airbus

They won't be getting any A350s any time soon. Abus announced a few days ago delays setting it back to 2015-16 timeframe. RR engine issues cited as major issues for the delay-or so Airbus says.
Plus, that A350 will have it's share of problems getting ticketed too. It won't be the last announced delay from Airbus.

I really hope AA isn't seriously considering that line of aircraft. You'd think they would've learned there lesson on that A300. But like everything else, it's got something to do with money. I know Airbus has made some carriers deals they couldn't refuse, hence the sales boom for a lot of there lines.
But what they may save on the front end, they'll more than pay for it on the back end. And I know you mechanics out there know what I mean.

 

[WorldTraveler]

It's actually ALL about money.
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AA has no choice but to look to technology to help it regain its conpetitive advantage which has been seriously eroded by its high costs.
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Problem is that other carriers can buy aircraft just as easily as AA has and there is no doubt that UA and DL can negotiate prices with Airbus and Boeing just as good as the other. Whatever advantage AA might have by buying new technology aircraft - which will certainly reduce AA's costs and give it a competitive advantage - will be wiped out as soon as the other carriers get their orders.
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One of the US carriers is bound to become a launch customer for the C series... and as bad as Boeing is trying to hold off Bombardier, they would far rather see a US carrier order the C series and then wait for the new Boeing narrowbody - which will ultimately come - than run to Airbus for 320s and then ultimately never come back - or at least always be in a position to order from Airbus for aircraft models comparable to what Boeing produces; the C series won't duplicate the majority of Boeing's product line, even if the C series eats into the bottom of the range.
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The problem with the C series is that it isn't a true replacement for even the M80, let alone the 757.
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While Airbus does make some decent products, pity the folks in AA load planning if AA buys the 321; they will quickly be reminded how superior the 757 is in terms of performance and on how few routes the 321 will be able to operate without performance restrictions - even in a neo configuration with new engines.
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[eolesen]

I talked with a friend at one of the manufacturers about this.... his take is AA is using Airbus as a whipping horse to get Boeing to move on the 797, and there's always more to the story with most of the Airbus orders and MOU's announced here this week. AA still seems to have decent access to financing. I suspect B6, AirAsiaX and Taca have some access, but that's probably not the case for the other carriers....

There's some truth to the opinion Boeing got shellacked this week, but Airbus has a habit of saving up orders for the Paris event, whereas Boeing tends not to flaunt their order book in the same way.

I'm still skeptical that AA would be talking seriously with Airbus after the liability lawsuits over AA857, but some people think the influence of IAG may be negating some of that negative karma. My opinion is that AA's still got enough bargaining power on their own that they don't need IAG to get to the next level of discounting.

The other discussion taking place that doesn't seem to be floating up as high on the rumor mill is talks on a 90-110 seater, which I see WT is alluding to above...

Now that RyanAir has taken the plunge with Comac, that's being seen a more viable option than it was two weeks ago. Again, I'm a skeptic there -- the leap of faith they took on Fokker 20 years ago shouldn't be forgotten, and Comac has yet to deliver anything yet.

Bombardier and Embraer have a much better history with AA, and also need the business. I think there's also a serious faux paux waiting with regard to labor relations for any US airline who buys a Chinese manufactured airframe. At least Airbus and Bombardier appear to be using unionized workers... no idea about Embraer. But Made in China?...

AA's got enough of a backlog of orders with Boeing that they could wait another few months to pull the trigger on a replacement. And I suspect that anywhere up to about 40% of the MOU aircraft announced this week will never actually be delivered, so if there's no movement from Boeing, AA could still get some favorable delivery positions for the A320neo.

 

[Bob Owens]

They won't be getting any A350s any time soon. Abus announced a few days ago delays setting it back to 2015-16 timeframe. RR engine issues cited as major issues for the delay-or so Airbus says.
Plus, that A350 will have it's share of problems getting ticketed too. It won't be the last announced delay from Airbus.

I really hope AA isn't seriously considering that line of aircraft. You'd think they would've learned there lesson on that A300. But like everything else, it's got something to do with money. I know Airbus has made some carriers deals they couldn't refuse, hence the sales boom for a lot of there lines.
But what they may save on the front end, they'll more than pay for it on the back end. And I know you mechanics out there know what I mean.

I hope they get them because what they dont want to pay us on the front end we can get on the back end with OT.

Like Pratts are known for oil leaks Airbus is known for hydraulic leaks. We were sad to see the A-300 leave, we figured we would lose a lot of OT however the 767's and 757s are proving to be nearly as bountiful.

 

[MCI transplant]

I talked with a friend at one of the manufacturers about this.... his take is AA is using Airbus as a whipping horse to get Boeing to move on the 797, and there's always more to the story with most of the Airbus orders and MOU's announced here this week. AA still seems to have decent access to financing. I suspect B6, AirAsiaX and Taca have some access, but that's probably not the case for the other carriers....

There's some truth to the opinion Boeing got shellacked this week, but Airbus has a habit of saving up orders for the Paris event, whereas Boeing tends not to flaunt their order book in the same way.

I'm still skeptical that AA would be talking seriously with Airbus after the liability lawsuits over AA857, but some people think the influence of IAG may be negating some of that negative karma. My opinion is that AA's still got enough bargaining power on their own that they don't need IAG to get to the next level of discounting.

The other discussion taking place that doesn't seem to be floating up as high on the rumor mill is talks on a 90-110 seater, which I see WT is alluding to above...

Now that RyanAir has taken the plunge with Comac, that's being seen a more viable option than it was two weeks ago. Again, I'm a skeptic there -- the leap of faith they took on Fokker 20 years ago shouldn't be forgotten, and Comac has yet to deliver anything yet.

Bombardier and Embraer have a much better history with AA, and also need the business. I think there's also a serious faux paux waiting with regard to labor relations for any US airline who buys a Chinese manufactured airframe. At least Airbus and Bombardier appear to be using unionized workers... no idea about Embraer. But Made in China?...

AA's got enough of a backlog of orders with Boeing that they could wait another few months to pull the trigger on a replacement. And I suspect that anywhere up to about 40% of the MOU aircraft announced this week will never actually be delivered, so if there's no movement from Boeing, AA could still get some favorable delivery positions for the A320neo.

<_< --------- http://english.people.com.cn/200706/29/eng20070629_388559.htm http://english.cctv.com/program/bizchina/20100204/101645.shtml

 

[eolesen]

The C919 isn't the same aircraft, MCI. It's a new (stolen?) design competing with the 737 and A320.

And the ARJ21 referenced in your link has yet to be delivered. They had a wing snap during static testing last year, which stopped the certification process dead in its tracks. If the Chinese had to stop certification, it had to be pretty damn serious.... 😉

 

[WorldTraveler]

Good to see you returning to subjects you are more familiar with, Eric. Your effectiveness in speaking on a subject goes up dramatically when you can speak from facts....
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It is highly possible that AA is using Airbus to get Boeing moving... problem w/ that theory is that DL and WN have both been telling Boeing for years they don't want minor modifications of the 737 - and even though DL and WN have the potential to order hundreds of 150 seat aircraft, they aren't the only airlines that have been telling Boeing to get moving.. there is nothing about what AA is saying that will get Boeing moving if they haven't already.
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Boeing CANNOT produce the plane they know the market needs - a true replacement - for 8 or 9 years at least - and possibly longer given that development delays are now the norm for new aircraft.
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AA cannot afford to wait 8-9 years to rebuild the company - and part of that strategy has to involve using new technology aircraft - and gaining some sort of cost advantage in jumping ahead of its competitors in its refleeting process... it may be a short-lived advantage but it is one that AA needs and the few years during which AA has that advantage might be long enough for AA to regain some semblance of competitive position in the industry.
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Yes, Airbus is much bigger on "show" with how it announces its orders... but there is no doubt that the 320neo is a relatively low risk, fast delivery solution that will make a dramatic difference in costs for airlines in 3-4 years, not a decade... as such Airbus will win orders - and AA may well decide they cannot wait for Boeing's "perfect" solution.
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What happened with the 300s is history.... AA will make its decision based on factors that exist today.

AA is a larger enough and important enough customer that they can dictate some engineering changes to Airbus if AA is goign to buy the 320... but the fact that thousands of the 320 series have been sold says that the vast majority of the world believes that Airbus builds a competitive and viable narrowbody.