AA overreached

[2ndGENAMT]

I cannot believe how calm everyone on here is.. I am furious!!

 

[Bob Owens]

It's not that easy. I'm not saying that that is impossible, but that is one of many outcomes. Even if that does happen, then we branch out into about a dozen more what-if scenarios. I am hearing that there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes right now - not only with the company but with the UCC.

For those of you offering us good wishes, thank you.

And thats exactly what I was saying, that by voting No a taking things forward it opens up the door to many possibilities while accepting the companys offer locks us in for at least 6 years.

Congrats to you guys. I know this is just a minor step but it shows how our so called "experts" were dead wrong.

 

[Buster CRC]

I cannot believe how calm everyone on here is.. I am furious!!

I'm furious too!!! I work in a shop that has way to many yes guys in it. It's been a ruff week. And now this makes me even more sick. I read all the tweets and read all the recaps of the court hearing, I never thought even a crooked judge could rule against us.
It was a absolutely rout TWU council tore right through the companies witnesses. But we will never know how it would have played out. Were stuck in reverse.

 

[eolesen]

Chest thumpers of the world, unite, but I suggest you read all the details.

Judge Lane agreed with about 95% of what AMR was asking for. He disagreed with APA on just about everything they countered with.

AMR is re-filing their ask on Friday, and I doubt the judge will delay action very long.

Summary of Judge Lane's ruling is attached.

I've started a new thread with the file attachment, since it's buried on page 5 here, and it's important that y'all read what the Judge has said....

Read VERY carefully before commenting....

 

[TWU informer]

Chest thumpers of the world, unite, but I suggest you read all the details.

Judge Lane agreed with about 95% of what AMR was asking for. He disagreed with APA on just about everything they countered with.

AMR is re-filing their ask on Friday, and I doubt the judge will delay action very long.

Summary of Judge Lane's ruling is attached.

Read VERY carefully before commenting....

Chest thumping aside Eric, and after reading the Lane decision, it is very likely that at minimum the TWU would have been able to stop the complete elimination of our job security clause just as Lane opposed the far reaching furloughs of the APA.

The Mechanic and Related had the strongest arguement against the FAR REACHING concessions than any group on the porperty.

We were misled by fear mongers of TWU Local 514, and so-called "experts" that are really nothing more than Democratic National Committee laundry machines taking our dues money for so-called "professional fess" and funneling to the Democrats.

This will surely be the final straw and TWU will be replaqced.

 

[strikeforce]

Chest thumpers of the world, unite, but I suggest you read all the details.

Judge Lane agreed with about 95% of what AMR was asking for. He disagreed with APA on just about everything they countered with.

AMR is re-filing their ask on Friday, and I doubt the judge will delay action very long.

Summary of Judge Lane's ruling is attached.

Read VERY carefully before commenting....

95% sure you won't see "unlimited" anywhere in the re-file. And with that point alone, is a major victory for labor. I hate to burst your anti-labor bubble.....but today's decision only enboldens the pilots unity. I'm absolutely sure they are celebrating somewhere, beside throwing darts at Hortons picture. Kuddos to the pilots....even if it only lasts til Friday! If anything E, it's a victory for labor!

 

[bluebird]

The TWU "experts" and the APFA "experts" have also been proven just as inept and wrong.

Perhaps there is a way to come out of this whole process with reasonable work rules.

“There’s always hope. There’s just no chance.” ~ Dennis Prager

 

[eolesen]

Chest thumping aside Eric, and after reading the Lane decision, it is very likely that at minimum the TWU would have been able to stop the complete elimination of our job security clause just as Lane opposed the far reaching furloughs of the APA.

The Mechanic and Related had the strongest arguement against the FAR REACHING concessions than any group on the porperty.

Dave, we'll never know if he would have sided with you guys on job security, but I don't think he would have been quite as accommodating as you think.

He agreed on following the industry benchmark on just about everything in the APA agreement. Where AA's request over-reached was with regard to *not* following the benchmarks on codewhoring and furlough.

As draconian as the changes were in the term sheet for the TWU, I don't think there wasn't anything in there that went beyond what the industry benchmark is.

Had there been a defined limit on domestic codewhoring and furloughs that was within what the rest of the majors have, we'd be having a much different discussion right now.

 

[TWU informer]

Dave, we'll never know if he would have sided with you guys on job security, but I don't think he would have been quite as accommodating as you think.

He agreed on following the industry benchmark on just about everything in the APA agreement. As draconian as the changes were in the term sheet for the TWU, I don't think there wasn't anything in there that went beyond what the industry benchmark is.

Had there been a defined limit on domestic codewhoring and furloughs, we'd be having a much different discussion right now.

You are right.....We'll never know.

But I wish we would have held out to find out.

Thanks for your inputs and predictions, but they are meaningless now.

BTW, we are below industry benchmark in nearly every employee compensation measurement.

 

[FWAAA]

Judge Lane basically told AA how to get where AA wanted on Codesharing:

51 One imagines that flexibility could be fairly easily achieved. One might establish, for example, a process whereby American would be entitled to additional codesharing above what is contemplated in the Business Plan by reference to various metrics measuring the size of American’s network against its competitors, its profitability after emergence from bankruptcy or even as a flat percentage above a set amount. The Court expresses no view as to the most appropriate way to address this issue. See Delta Air Lines, 342 B.R. at 691 (the necessity inquiry is fact-sensitive and “the impetus of small or subtle changes in the circumstances may alter [the Court’s] perspective and conclusions.&rdquo😉.​

​

 

[Bob Owens]

The Court concludes that American’s proposed changes to furlough and codesharing have not been justified by either reference to the Business Plan or the practices of American’s competitors.

LBO2 has less vacation than any of AA competitors.
LBO2 has lower hourly rates than any of AAs competitors.
LBO2 has less sick time than any of AA's competitors.
LBO2 has less Holidays than any of AA's competitors.
LBO2 has the most oppressive workrules of any of AA's competitors.
LBO2 has the most expensive out of pocket medical compared to AA's competitors.
LBO2 provided ZERO job secirity while the pilots had 95% of their members covered.
There's more but I think I made my point.
We had a lot more to support our arguement that the demands AA was making were excessive and not required because nobody else had them.


Like I said C-11 was put in place to relieve companies from onerous contracts, not to allow them to impose onerous contracts on others.

 

[Bob Owens]

Dave, we'll never know if he would have sided with you guys on job security, but I don't think he would have been quite as accommodating as you think.

He agreed on following the industry benchmark on just about everything in the APA agreement. Where AA's request over-reached was with regard to *not* following the benchmarks on codewhoring and furlough.

As draconian as the changes were in the term sheet for the TWU, I don't think there wasn't anything in there that went beyond what the industry benchmark is.

Really?

One week of vacation.
Five holidays at half pay.
5 sick days'
No doubletime
No negotiated work rules, company writes them.
No negotiated definitions concerning qualifications.
Lowest pay in the industry and locked in for six years while all our competitors are either in or coming up to negotiations.
Then on top of that the bootlicker letter, that says that in return for bottom of the industry wages we have to committ to making AA "best in class" and allow the company to put all theirs and Dons ass kissers from the Union on UBP and kick all the Line Maintenance Presidents off UBB. ( I believe all the other TWU agreements kept UBB in place, Tulsa has T-III so they would keep UBB, only line maint loses it-fair and equal?)

The only things that we had above some of the the others was a DB pension and retiree medical which we were willing to cede.

These changes were beyond draconian because they were far in excess of whwere anyone else in the industry. As our Union sold us out instead of comparing us to the industry they compared us to companies that were at the top of the industry in pay and benefits, companies that are all ahead of us now and tried to do the companys dirty work and make it seem like the concessions they were asking from us were not as bad as what others gave. Well if you go from the top of the industry to the middle or even the bottom thats generally not as bad as being at the bottom and going even lower.

 

[TWU informer]

The other significant item, is the new 1113 motion will change all dates related to negotiations and what will now consititutes the abbrogation "term sheet".

 

[FWAAA]

Bob, despite your protests to the contrary, the ruling confirms that asking all workgroups for the same percentage cost reductions (20%) was fair and consistent with bankruptcy law. On which of your list of items where you claim that you're in last place was AA proposing to make things even worse? Even before Ch 11, you were already last in many of those areas, right?

So where would you have cut maintenance costs by 20% if not the items that AA demanded and a slim majority approved last week? Would you have cut payrates?

Bankruptcy is about cutting costs. In the two areas where the Judge denied AA's demands of the pilots, there's no evidence of cost savings. And AA failed to supply evidence that its no-cost changes were necessary.

 

[eolesen]

The only things that we had above some of the the others was a DB pension and retiree medixcal which we were willing to cede.

You mean the only thing the Line had above some of the others,right?

Your comments ignore the topic of overhaul entirely, and again, the TWU chose quantity of dues jobs saved over quality of contract.

That was your collective choice.