AA widebodies in STL starting tomorrow

[MiAAmi]

Yes it is too early. But imagine 21000 F/A's upset with approx 3000. Even if you guys win the lawsuit I would not want to walk in your shoes. Not that I agree with some of their tactics (individual F/A's not APFA) But the way some of the people who crossed the picket line back in 93 are treated I certainly don't envy. Its sad but true. This seniority thing has gotten ugly and could possibly even get worse. I tend to pick my battles. I'm sure that the TWA'ers have already weighed thier options. In writing this post I know it sounds as though I feel there is a possiblity of APFA lossing the suit. I'm not overly concerned about losing my seniority, but with all the sneeky amendments over the past year and the law suit. I have to wonder when you will start to play with the cards that where dealt to you. With all the other airline workers out there wondering how deep the cuts are going to get, some of the posters here make it sound as though they were doing better before the AA take over. AA might not be in the best of financial shape right now but for many years at TWA you didn't know if your company would survive until the next day or so. If the deal had fallen through we can only speculate where you would be today. Most likely at the bottom of a seniority list at another carrier with starting pay and the next in line to be furloughed. I just think some of you are a bit short sighted. Eventually I think you will find out that APFA is really a strong union and a focused one. We only need to take care of ourselves ( the AA Flight Attendants including the ex-TWA'ers).

 

[ART]

FA Mikey and MiAAmi:
.
Yes it is too early. But imagine 21000 F/A's upset with approx 3000
.
Seems like a 1 for 3 or 3 1/2 might avert a continued effort to win each of the lawsuits as well as the EEOC actions already underway.
.
Better check the financial reserves of APFA. One small dollar victory could cause your association APFA to go OUT of business, be de-certified as the bargaining representative and allow the entrance of a responsible and seasoned labor entity. One that will insure that long-term health benefits, work rules, retirement plans AND salary are the best in the industry. Believe me, those efforts are already underway.
.
In addition, since the actions of John Ward and the BOD were taken were not protected by any type of corporate structure, each of them is individually liable for the payment of those sums awarded by the courts. It would be too late for them to form the structure now, as the actions took place under a previous environment.
.
You will also note that the amounts may be trebled, if the court finds the actions were designed in a malicious and planned fashion. American also stands to lose if it is found they acted in concert with the APFA. They are not going to cover the APFA.
.
Many of you should check with the APFA attorneys personally and then make your own assessment. Many of you should call them and question each of these items. Rather than work through what your are fed, find out for your own peace of mind. Remember the APFA does NOT have the financial or emotional support of ANY other AA union.
.
Fragile is not a good thing.
.
Life is tough without money and peace of mind. Better to give a little and continue to exist.

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha Art & Welcome,

On 10/3/2002 5:58:54 PM ART wrote:

Your original problem comes when Mr. Carty held up his hand in Federal proceeding and said certain things. In addition APFA was to, and has not to this point, met any of the contigencies that was imposed on it. So if it is a deliberate act on the part of AA or APFA or together they have collectively caused this issue, please call them.

007,
You are right Art. The TWA F/As did not cause this lawsuit. The ones that are at fault are the APFA Leaders & AA Management. Their actions, or lack of them, are the reasons the courts have step in.

Art,
Should the findings go to support the incoming TW workforce, not only will there be a snap-back of seniority, but a HUGE monetary award you wouldn't believe.

007,
Right again. If only the APFA & AA had gone through what was promised in the courts & the purchase agreement they would not be in this position. Mike is right. The suits do have the potential to bankrupt the APFA & hurt AA. Again, this isnt the fault of the TWA F/As, but their own.

Art,
Do yourself a favor and suggest that the APFA change their thinking, before it costs large sums.

007,
Its sad that many AA F/As, like Mike & otheres, follow the APFA Leaders blindly. The misinformation being given out has brainwashed them that their way is the only way. If you dont like it hit the highway. Mike even believes, or wishes, that the suit will be thrown out soon. That it has no merit. This shows the extent of the misinfromation out there. This case will be heard and I think the outcome will not be of their liking. Anyone who has read the briefs knows that it not only has merit, but has just cause. IMHO.

As far as large sums, I have been out of job for over a year due to the APFA & AA actions. How much is that worth. Now if you triple it & multiply it by 1000, the numbers due look pretty large.

Again, this is not the fault of the TWA F/As. It is caused by the actions of the APFA & AA. They have only themselves to blaim.

ALOHA, 007

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha MiAAmi,

On 10/4/2002 8:36:56 AM MiAAmi wrote:

Yes it is too early. But imagine 21000 F/A's upset with approx 3000. Even if you guys win the lawsuit I would not want to walk in your shoes.

007,
Sorry, but that sounds a little like a threat. Why would the AA F/As be upset with a TWA F/As win in court? Are you saying that IF the TWA win before an impartial Judge that the AA F/As would blame the TWA F/As and not the people that caused the actions. Wouldnt the blame really be on the shoulders of the APFA leaders who caused the action. If the TWA F/As win that means that the APFA broke the law. Doesnt that make THEM the bad guys? It looks like right or wrong the TWA F/As are going to be the bad guys. How sad.

MiAAmi,
I have to wonder when you will start to play with the cards that where dealt to you.

007,
Thats exactly what we are doing, playing with the cards that we were dealt with. Its the same deck, but the APFA got caught dealing from the bottom of the deck by putting the TWA F/As at the bottom.

MiAAmi,
If the deal had fallen through we can only speculate where you would be today.

007,
That is absolutely correct. What might have happen to TWA if not for AA is just pure speculation and doesnt even come into play. All we can go by is what really happen.

MiAAmi,
Eventually I think you will find out that APFA is really a strong union and a focused one.

007,
I sure hope so and one way they can do that is by working out a compromise before it is to late. Otherwise they could be bankrupt and very weak.

MiAAmi,
We only need to take care of ourselves.

007,
Thats the type of thinking that has gotten the APFA in trouble in the first place.

ALOHA, 007

 

[TWAnr]

[BR][BR][FONT size=2]MiAAmi,[/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]I was not at the meeting, but several people whom I know and trust were present until they were inappropriately ejected.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]In my opinion, they are infinitely more credible than any of the APFA young Turks who populate these boards.[/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]The AA side clearly benefits from blocking the integration training for ISL.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]It means more flights operated by those on the AA side of the fence to desirable destinations; it also mitigates the seasonal fallbacks of international flying at both IOR and IDF who are now staffing the [?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags /][st1:City][st1lace]St. Louis[/st1lace][/st1:City] flights to [st1:State][st1lace]Hawaii[/st1lace][/st1:State] and as of next month to [st1:City][st1lace]London[/st1lace][/st1:City].[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]Besides, because of his vitriolic hatred of the [st1:City][st1lace]St. Louis[/st1lace][/st1:City] based members, John Ward does not need rational reasons to take the best of the [st1:City][st1lace]St. Louis[/st1lace][/st1:City] flying away from them given the opportunity.[/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]Both the STL and ISL chairs were improperly excluded from several board meetings and conference calls which were called to deal with furlough and integration training issues on the false pretext that those meetings dealt with the law suits.[/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]Read your own seniority integration agreement, including the language that John Ward added to it without the authorization of the board of directors.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]It clearly covers staffing.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]No new equipment types can be introduced to the St. Louis bases until the integration is complete and no St. Louis based flight attendant can transfer to other bases until all AA flight attendants, including those hired after [st1:date Year=2001 Day=10 Month=4]April 10, 2001[/st1:date], are recalled from furlough.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]It is common knowledge who has been blocking the integration training proffer and what the point of contention is no matter how hard you and your like minded hacks try to shift the blame to the company.[/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]You are right; I am not a flight attendant.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]However, I am married to one.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]Our marriage is a complete partnership and each one of us will fight the other’s battles when the need arises.[SPAN style=mso-spacerun: yes] [/SPAN]Besides, these issues will be decided in the courts by those who are not flight attendants, so get used to it.[/FONT][BR][FONT size=2][/FONT][BR][BR][FONT size=2]Have a good life.[/FONT]

 

[F/A TWAA]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/4/2002 8:36:56 AM MiAAmi wrote:

.......But imagine 21000 F/A's upset with approx 3000. Even if you guys win the lawsuit I would not want to walk in your shoes. Not that I agree with some of their tactics (individual F/A's not APFA) But the way some of the people who crossed the picket line back in 93 are treated I certainly don't envy.............

----------------
[/blockquote]

F/A TWAA says:

That, my friend, is bully talk. And in today's enviorment of zero tolerance your implied threats will be taken very seriously. Any kind of tom foolery will be dealt with swiftly through the proper channels.

P.S. By the way, you started this flame-bait of a topic. It should be clear to all by now that you have an anger problem.

 

[Cart Pusher]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/3/2002 5:54:46 PM eolesen wrote:

What AirLUVer says is absolutely true, folks. And as a manager, I'm obligated to report it if I see it, regardless if it were a breakroom, on the employee bus, at my neighborhood Chili's over a beer, or in a nameless-faceless environment like this.

I'm sure that the USAviation.Com people also don't want that liability, so please leave that sort of crap for Hatemongers.Com instead of here, OK?..
----------------
[/blockquote]


F/A TWAA -

Per eoleson, as mAAnagement, he is obliged to report any type of postings, such as the one that you are referring to. Is he reading this?

 

[MiAAmi]

I think if you re-read my post it says I wouldnt want to be in your shoes. Let me give you some perspective if I may. I also would not want to be in the shoes of someone who had the mis-fortune of losing their job. Basically I wouldn't want 21000 people looking at me with anger. Where in this am I threatening anyone? I think the object of this forum is to express our views. Thats all I'm doing. I know we all are a little sensitive these days but be assured, I wish no-one any ill will.

 

[F/A TWAA]

[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/4/2002 9:09:50 PM MiAAmi wrote:

.........I also would not want to be in the shoes of someone who had the mis-fortune of losing their job.

--------------
[/blockquote]

Well then, with that said, just perhaps you can begin to understand what we are going through. The whole premis that the TWA people are going to take away something from you is 100% false. Your's and Mike's assumptions of what COULD happen if we should get any senoirity is all based on FEAR......not facts. Try and put yourself in our situation and I guarantee you would do exactly the same. Enough said. Peace

 

[MiAAmi]

You can get off your high horse.... I was laid off with Braniff and I do know what its like. Only we didnt get our last paycheck and there were no call backs. You seem pretty defensive for someone who thinks that they can predict what the courts will do.

 

[FA Mikey]

ART, Guess what, your statement is way off. In addition APFA was to, and has not to this point, met any of the contigencies that was imposed on it. So if it is a deliberate act on the part of AA or APFA or together they have collectively caused this issue.

There was nothing imposed on APFA APA or TWU. These are union srepresenting AA employees. They negotiate for AA employees, and only with AA. Not IAM or ALPA.

 

[FA Mikey]

TWAFA007 says:
You are right Art. The TWA F/As did not cause this lawsuit. The ones that are at fault are the APFA Leaders & AA Management. Their actions, or lack of them, are the reasons the courts have step in.

Mike says: Last I checked the names on the lawsuit were TW f/as and the IAM was funding it. Just because AA flight attendants didnt give you credit for time served at TW you are suing. Yea its all our fault.

 

[FA Mikey]

TWANR says: The AA side clearly benefits from blocking the integration training for ISL. It means more flights operated by those on the AA side of the fence to desirable destinations; it also mitigates the seasonal fallbacks of international flying at both IOR and IDF who are now staffing the St. Louis flights to Hawaii and as of next month to London. Besides, because of his vitriolic hatred of the St. Louis based members, John Ward does not need rational reasons to take the best of the St. Louis flying away from them given the opportunity.

Mike says: Wrong. We lose. OH boy more LGW. More Hawaii. Our benefit would have been for more leaves to more members. Our benefit would have been some fall offs to domestic. They tend to go senior. Soory man. If thats your best flying. Please keep it. I am sure Johns hatred has nothing to do with the lawsuits and the constant drama coming from STL.

 

[FA Mikey]

TWAFA007,
Its sad that many AA F/As, like Mike & otheres, follow the APFA Leaders blindly. The misinformation being given out has brainwashed them that their way is the only way. If you dont like it hit the highway. Mike even believes, or wishes, that the suit will be thrown out soon. That it has no merit. This shows the extent of the misinfromation out there. This case will be heard and I think the outcome will not be of their liking. Anyone who has read the briefs knows that it not only has merit, but has just cause. IMHO.

Mike says: Well IYHO, so be it. I have several other cases that back my beliefs up. You have none. You read that and see merit. I see wishful thinking.

 

[FA Mikey]

ART says:
Seems like a 1 for 3 or 3 1/2 might avert a continued effort to win each of the lawsuits as well as the EEOC actions already underway.

Mike says: Really, What EEOC actions? None I am aware of. Will they be looking in to the fact that a former TW f/a might have to layover in TUL instead of LHR.

ART says: Better check the financial reserves of APFA. One small dollar victory could cause your association APFA to go OUT of business, be de-certified as the bargaining representative and allow the entrance of a responsible and seasoned labor entity. One that will insure that long-term health benefits, work rules, retirement plans AND salary are the best in the industry. Believe me, those efforts are already underway.

Mike says: You guys think MAAmi statement was mean spirited (which it wasn't)How about the threats of the TW people using the courts to bankrupt us. Hope they remember, its going to be there loss too.

Art says:In addition, since the actions of John Ward and the BOD were taken were not protected by any type of corporate structure, each of them is individually liable for the payment of those sums awarded by the courts. It would be too late for them to form the structure now, as the actions took place under a previous environment.

Mike says: What actions? The ones representing the intrests of the members of the union. In previous cases courts have said, the unions job is to represent its members.

Art says: You will also note that the amounts may be trebled, if the court finds the actions were designed in a malicious and planned fashion. American also stands to lose if it is found they acted in concert with the APFA. They are not going to cover the APFA.

Mike says: Why will the courst fine us. Because a group from a bankrupt compnay want the seniority from a past company at the new one. Because making the same pay for the same job is not enough. Being already treated better than even a current employee in terms of pay. Is not enough. The court will show you one thing. The doorway out.

ART says: Many of you should check with the APFA attorneys personally and then make your own assessment. Many of you should call them and question each of these items. Rather than work through what your are fed, find out for your own peace of mind. Remember the APFA does NOT have the financial or emotional support of ANY other AA union.

Mike says: APFA has since its members broke off from the TWU. Done it OUR way. Served the intrests of its members. Stood its ground and held its own. Done far better for its members than the IAM has done for its. APFA will have the support of our fellow employees. Just as we will be there for them. As you continue to try to cheat your way in to our seniority. We have collectively stood our ground to stop it. We will all continue to so long as it is necessary.