AAA ALPA Topic 8/31/07 - 9/06/07

[nostradamus]

*shrug* Had you and your MEC listened to me, you would have seen Nicolau coming a mile away. Check the archive, sparky.

Who is qualified to have an opinion? Those, like you and 320Pilot, who honestly thought that DOH (or even LOS) had a snowball's chance in hades? How'd that work?

Called that, the second east bankruptcy, that the DL merger was not going to happen, and a lot of other things. It's amazing what a little bit of information (you don't even leave the gate without relying upon a very key product into whose production and sale to US Airways I have a keen interest and slight involvement in) and a modicum of common sense can do for someone's opinions.
That's hilarious. Jim tends to walk quietly and carry big facts to illustrate what he says. If you and the rest of the east crew were around, we'd still have british accents due to a dangerous combination of overactive ego and complete lack of tactical (or strategic, for that matter) vision.
So was Nicolau. It's not that hard to understand why that happened (or why the USAPA thing, while "feel good," is still not going to permit a DOH cramdown) if one can remove one's head from one's posterior. I don't expect that those who are out blustering about it to reach that state of enlightenment anytime soon.

At the end of the day, the mistake was East's DOH push. It's not going to happen, in this lifetime or the next. Check back when it costs you guys years of LOA 93 and millions in dues and assessments and you finally understand what those with some modicum of vision knew the entire time.

You confused my civility attempt as a weakness. I do not represent all the affected pilots. The current situation is not conducive to future investors.

 

[nostradamus]

I do not know why AWA320 is not contributing lately. I hope he returns soon. I have dedicated a quote for him:

“We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.â€￾

Oliver Wendell Holmes,

 

[luvn737s]

Your decision to participate in USAPA is yours and yours only. Have you taken the time to visit the USAPA website?

A lot of what you say is rooted in ALPA representation. This is not ALPA!

You will always be given the right to vote. Therefore USAPA will represent ALL USAirways pilots.

How can you guarantee that? The USAPA raison d'etre is to violate a legally binding agreement. They are corrupt from the get-go. USAPA has shown no evidence of supporting the AWA pilots nor do they care about the hundreds of US pilots suffering needlessly under LOA93.

If USAPA was mounting a recall of Stephan, then I might think they are merely anti-ALPA, but they have proven themselves to be an alter-ego of US the US MEC and have targeted the AWA pilot group as their primary advesary.

Please prove me wrong, because if they are doing something productive for ALL the US pilots that I'm unaware of, I'd be happy to hear it.

 

[TheLarkAscending]

What's funnier (or scary, in a way) is why a name matters? ... In the interest of entertainment, however, I'll out myself: I am Spartacus.

Hey, Spartacus, nice abs! 😛 Since (to borrow a quote) I am not afraid to hide my identity, hidden it shall remain. 😉

Agreed. The message is material, not necessarily the messenger. Getting entagled in the minutia just demostrates where any particular individual's intellectual, maturation and motivational watermark rests at a given time.

 

[USA320Pilot]

There is very little time for the AWA MEC to agree to the two ALPA Executive Council resolutions and to find a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award per the Rice Committee or ALPA will lose control of the representation process to the NMB this month.

USAPA is laser focused and they already have enough votes to call an election. USAPA is seeking more cards so there is no dispute during the card count.

In my opinion, USAPA is gaining strength because the AWA MEC has defied ALPA International. USAPA officials and their law firm know exactly what they are doing. For example, their timing will remove the issue of furloughs because the furlough list is about to be exhausted with pilots forced to return to US Airways or resign. This permits USAPA to know exactly how many votes they need to kick ALPA "off of the East property" and impose a new union on the West pilots.

It is my understanding ALPA or USAPA needs to obtain a 50% + 1 of the votes cast during the election or a simple majority of those who vote. This would permit the winning union to immediately represent both the East and West pilots, therefore; the East and West pilots would continue to have union representation from the day USAPA is born.

The East pilots will be the “majorityâ€￾ negotiator and the West pilots would become the “minorityâ€￾ negotiator -- with the parties free to set their own constitution and by-laws and merger policy.

If the West pilots (and the East pilots) prefer to keep ALPA on the property then I believe the AWA MEC must very quickly agree to seek a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award problem per the Rice Committee or face union "imposition" before Christmas.

In conclusion, I believe the AWA MEC has mislead the AWA pilots regarding the East pilot resolve, the East pilot support of the US Airways MEC, and USAPA's strength, organization, and resolve.

Time is short and either a deal is cut for a new seniority integration, which could be something like Crew Base fences (not necessarily 20 year's like Northwest & Republic), shared growth, furlough protection based on DOH, and future merger protections with all of this embodied in a new joint contract or USAPA will likely become the new bargaining agent for both the East and West pilots before the end of the year.

I believe by now we all recognize there is a major dispute between the East and West pilots. It is my hope that ALPA, the Company, the East MEC, and the West MEC can immediately reach an accord so everybody interested in the success of US Airways can move forward, but make no mistake, the ball is now clearly in the West pilot's court because the clock is ticking...

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[L1011Ret]

Your statements are always so threatening towards others...

 

[USA320Pilot]

L1011,

They are not threatening words, they're fact. I am not a USAPA member, but I know exactly what is going on. I spent 10 hours with their president one-on-one discussing the issue, I see their emails almost every day, and I see the resolve in their eyes.

The AWA MEC has defied the ALPA EC twice, not once, but twice and they have rejected the work of the Rice Committee, which is giving USAPA tremendous support. Furthermore, I believe the AWA MEC and the West pilots underestimated the resolve of the East pilots to right what they believe is wrong because ALPA Merger Policy was not followed.

Furthermore, USAPA is working within the confines of Labor Law and they have retained a well schooled law firm that is providing legal advice and guidance. USAPA will file the NMB Form 1 and the required IRS paperwork with the government within in the next few weeks or even days. Then ALPA will lose control of the process. That is not a threat, but instead a fact.

Here is the cold hard truth. Either the AWA MEC and the West pilots agree to the two EC resolutions and the work with the Rice Committee to find a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award or the West pilots will more than likely have a new union imposed on them because they are the minority party. Again, that is not threatening...it is the cold hard truth and a fact.

As I indicated earlier, the ball is in the AWA MEC's court. The ALPA EC, the ALPA Rice Committee, Doug Parker, and the US Airways MEC all believe there needs to be discussion and compromise. The only party unwilling to discuss the issue is the AWA MEC, which has caused many, many US Airways pilots to believe they have no other option but USAPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's sorta like poker.....

The player with the royal straight flush doesn't need to constantly tell everyone what cards he has - the cards will speak for themselves when the time comes. It's the player holding squat but bluffing who tries to convince the other players that his cards are stronger than they really are.

Likewise here - with a slam dunk hand why all the rhetoric trying to get the other side to the table? Just play the cards and rake in the pot.......

Jim

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

The best you can hope for is fences, that's about it. You may think your threats will lead to capitulation, but I can tell you with 100% certainty the opposite affect is the reality. Each step you take embolden the west to stand up to fascism and tyranny.

If USAPA becomes reality, so what!! Then what genius? That move will only hasten implementation of Nic and guarantee no “consensual solutionsâ€￾, EVER. So, I say go for it big britches, but be prepared to suffer the consequences. $$$$$$$

L1011,

They are not threatening words, they're fact. I am not a USAPA member, but I know exactly what is going on. I spent 10 hours with their president one-on-one discussing the issue, I see their emails almost every day, and I see the resolve in their eyes.

The AWA MEC has defied the ALPA EC twice, not once, but twice and they have rejected the work of the Rice Committee, which is giving USAPA tremendous support. Furthermore, I believe the AWA MEC and the West pilots underestimated the resolve of the East pilots to right what they believe is wrong because ALPA Merger Policy was not followed.

Furthermore, USAPA is working within the confines of Labor Law and they have retained a well schooled law firm that is providing legal advice and guidance. USAPA will file the NMB Form 1 and the required IRS paperwork with the government within in the next few weeks or even days. Then ALPA will lose control of the process. That is not a threat, but instead a fact.

Here is the cold hard truth. Either the AWA MEC and the West pilots agree to the two EC resolutions and the work with the Rice Committee to find a "realistic solution" to the Nicolau Award or the West pilots will more than likely have a new union imposed on them because they are the minority party. Again, that is not threatening...it is the cold hard truth and a fact.

As I indicated earlier, the ball is in the AWA MEC's court. The ALPA EC, the ALPA Rice Committee, Doug Parker, and the US Airways MEC all believe there needs to be discussion and compromise. The only party unwilling to discuss the issue is the AWA MEC, which has caused many, many US Airways pilots to believe they have no other option but USAPA.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA has the required number of cards to order an election now that the furlough numbers are known, but nobody knows if the NMB will consider each signature valid when they compare the card signature to the company provided signature.

Thus, USAPA believes they need more cards to ensure the NMB declare an representational dispute and order an election this fall.

From my perspective I prefer to see ALPA remain on the property versus the USAPA option. In addition, the ALPA EC, the Rice Committee, Doug Parker, and the US Airways MEC would like to see a negotiated settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, which could keep ALPA on the property. However, without the West pilots willing to negotiate there will likely be no settlement in the seniority integration dispute; therefore, the majority of East pilots believe they have may have no other options than legal action or USAPA.

If the AWA MEC refuses to negotiate a "realistic solution" per the Rice Committee then USAPA will continue their campaign, they will seek more cards to ensure they have a comfortable margin, and when they believe they have the card count "in the bag" they will file the NMB Form 1.

This is not poker...it is the reality of the situation. As I indicated before the ball is in the AWA MEC's court and if the West pilots refuse to seek a settlement then I believe USAPA will be imposed on the West pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Piedmont1984]

It's sorta like poker.....

The player with the royal straight flush doesn't need to constantly tell everyone what cards he has - the cards will speak for themselves when the time comes. It's the player holding squat but bluffing who tries to convince the other players that his cards are stronger than they really are.

Likewise here - with a slam dunk hand why all the rhetoric trying to get the other side to the table? Just play the cards and rake in the pot.......

Jim

Or, it's sorta like good cop bad cop. USA320 is the good cop, warning everyone that time is running out. USAPA is the alternative. I believe USA320 still hopes that ALPA will survive on this property. He has always been very active within ALPA and ran for office not too long ago.

Those like me are the bad cop. I believe USAPA is the way to go. I also believe they will prevail. In fact, I think time has already run out, news at 11.

 

[767jetz]

In addition, the ALPA EC, the Rice Committee, Doug Parker, and the US Airways MEC would like to see a negotiated settlement to the Nicolau Award problem, which could keep ALPA on the property. However, without the West pilots willing to negotiate there will likely be no settlement in the seniority integration dispute;

USA320Pilot

USA320pilot,

I see this as a false statement. You keep saying that you want to negotiate a solution, but then comes the stipulation that the Nicolau award will not be implemented. You can't open a door that says negotiate, then slam it shut by putting unrealistic conditions on it. If you want to negotiate then you have to consider the possibility of accepting the list as is and going from there. If not, then it seems like it is your side that is not willing to negotiate.

Negotiation is available through the JNC. I believe the West has been saying this all along. It would just involve not reordering the list.

I also have a problem when you say that that the West is not complying with the EC resolution, but mean while your side is not complying with the binding arbitration that you guys insisted on. Don't you see problem with this at all? Do you not see even the slightest hint of a double standard here?

 

[USA320Pilot]

Cactus,

Cactus said: “If USAPA becomes reality, so what!! Then what genius? That move will only hasten implementation of Nic and guarantee no “consensual solutionsâ€￾, EVER. So, I say go for it big britches, but be prepared to suffer the consequences.â€￾

USA320Pilot comments: It is my understanding that if USAPA gains control of the US Airways and AWA pilots then a new constitution and by-laws would be created. This would include a new merger and fragmentation policy.

According to USAPA’s attorney Lee Seham USAPA would be free to implement a DOH seniority list. USAPA has already created a seniority integration plan that would prevent a DFR lawsuit and its attorney’s know exactly how to implement this process. As far as “consensual approachesâ€￾ at this point I do not think USAPA or many East pilots care about that.

Why? The AWA MEC has refused to honor two EC resolutions, they are not working with the Rice Committee, and they have not agreed to sit down and work out a solution to this problem per Doug Parker’s desire.

Going forward if USAPA becomes the bargaining agent the East pilots would be in the “majorityâ€￾ and the West pilots would be in the “minorityâ€￾; therefore, the vast majority of the East pilots do not care about the West pilots threat to “be prepared to suffer the consequences.â€￾

Again, the ball is in the AWA MEC’s court with probably less than a month to keep ALPA on the property and negotiate a settlement with fences, DOH furlough, base, and future merger protections all embodied in a joint contract or the card count will likely occur.

Piedmont1984 is very bright and astute. I do hope there is a “realistic solutionâ€￾ to the problem and ALPA prevails, but as Piedmont1984 indicated “time has already run out, news at 11.â€￾

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[TheLarkAscending]

This is not poker...

Sometimes subtlety seems to get lost with you. No one was suggesting that it was poker. There were comparisons made using poker as an example. Someone with a good hand usually says very little because they're more certain of the outcome. Generally, someone without the good hand often uses the bluffing technique often repeating something in an attempt to persuade the others that they have something they actually do not.

Everyone realizes this isn't poker, or we'd all be having a lot more fun.

 

[BoeingBoy]

In fact, I think time has already run out, news at 11.

Oh, there'll be "news at 11" - the question is whether it'll be the news that the East pilots are being led to expect......

Jim