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On 5/10/2003 11
35 AM LavMan wrote:
Second of all the AGCs did not ratify any agreement, it was the rank and file at UAL who voted, A handful of union representatives did not vote 70% to vote in a contract it was the mechanics and utility at UAL who ratified their contract.
A while back I said that this would happen. The Union would blame the members for their lack of leadership. As I recall the mechanics did vote NO. Instead of honoring the vote the union forced them to vote again. This time, with threats from the union they passed it. Did they ever release a breakdown of the votes in the second vote? Since the same people who were making the threats would be the same people who would be in control of the negotiations what choice did they really have? To blame them for this deal is a gross deriliction of resposibility on the union leaders part. They sold it with strong arm tactics and now blame you for accepting it. You guys need new representation.
Third, what would you do? Look around the airline business is in shambles, Bush used the ATSB to destroy our livlihoods and the airlines used 9-11, the bankruptcy courts, the conflict in Iraq and now NWA is using SARS.
And what has the response been from the AFL-CIO affiliated Unions? Stand together? No, run for the hills!
It is not a level playing field it never has been and never will be. GO back to the early 80's when there was no section 1113 of the bankruptcy code, with one stroke of a pen Frank Lorenzo had a federally appointed judge wipe out contracts and union certification of every union and labor agreement at CO.
Thats why we have Unions, to level the playing field. As long as we are willing to collectively withhold our labor we have leverage. Even in the worst of times. Are you saying that unions are pointless and can not level the playing field/ Why have them then? Lorenzo was so successful because each Union stood alone and were picked off one by one. The Pilots crossed the picket lines of the mechanics and the scab mechanics then crossed the pilots lines. Both were AFL-CIO.
This assault is industrywide, our response must also be industrywide. Isnt that the purpose of AFL-CIO affiliation? Unfortunately the Business Unions are too preoccupied with "market share (of union members)" to make any unified response other than the typical rhetorical ones we always see after defeats.
In our case Judge Stephen Mitchell ruled every single motion that came before him in the company's favor. Do you think us workers would have faired better by the judge ruling yea or nay on the company's abrogation and petition to make us employees at will with no job security, no gauranted work rules, benefits and wages, no pension, no severance, no scope language? I mean get real and think with logic and not emotions.
If you read into the law it also mentions that the judge must consider labors response. If labor made it clear that they would strike, in other words kill the company, if they imposed unacceptable conditions, the creditors would have been much worse off under current industry conditions than by allowing the company to continue to operate. More than likely the Judge would not abrogate the deal but encourage the company and the Union to negotiate a settlement.
I agree the second vote was the wrong thing to do, but I fully understand why it was done, it was done to prevent economic suicide by 7,000 Mechanic and Related employees.
The mechanics at United rejected theirs. Are they still better off Economically than you?
You want someone to blame, look in the mirror and look at your coworkers who are not unified and let the company pit us against each other day after day, you think we would have learned by now, the enemy is not the IAM or your coworkers, the enemy is management and your politicians.
The Union failed to lead. They acted in a way that benifited the company at the expense of the employees.
Labors main weapon will always be Labor. The reliance and deferal of the members power to politicians is bull. If the union had threatened to take a stand the members would not be in the state they are now, and will be till 2008 and beyond. It could have been worse or it could have been better. Unions used to take the chance on it being better. Fighting always involves risk but it also gives the possibility of improvements. Surrendering is a sure thing. Sure that things will get worse.
Every union at US took it in the shorts, ALPA, AFA, IAM, CWA and the TWU, now if over 20,000 employees realized we had to sacrifice now or lose everything it must have been right, not likable but the right choice.
That is the stupidest remark yet.
Look at the pilots who lost more then everyone, they lost their futures, when they had to give up their pensions, because they knew if they did not none of the pilots would have a job.
Do you suggest that if employees do not work for less that all the airlines would dissappear and people would start taking boats and trains again? If they did wouldnt those industries need more workers?
Look around at the industry, no one is safe, all the real airlines are in financial trouble, you won't find work in your field. Look at JetBlue, they have 40 or so airplanes and only 36 mechanics before they hired some for Long Beach. Yes 36 mechanics for 40+ airplanes, we have over 4,000 mechanics for 279 planes, SWA has 1,265 mechanics for 400 airplanes. This is reality, not bullcrap. JetBlue has a five year $10 million contract with EADS Aeroframe Services ( a subisiday of Airbus) to do everything from an exterior wash to a complete overhaul.
I am not saying the IAM is the best but without them you would not have a job with this company.
Did the IAM hire them? Does the IAM pay them? Or does the IAM take their money and then tell them they should work for less?
You want someone to blame, blame Elizabeth Dole who changed FAR145 while she was secretary of the DOT under the Reagan administration who permitted united states based airlines to have scheduled maintenance permitted anywhere in the world. I still cant fathom how any airline mechanic could have voted for her to make her the United States Senator from North Carolina, but trust me they did cause I talked to some of them that voted for her.
Neither can I but why didnt the unions threaten to shut down the industry then like they would in Europe? The law? If unions had stayed within the confines of the law we would not exist. It is the business unionism culture of staying within the confines of unjust laws that has pushed overall union membership down to only 9% of the private sector workforce. If we continiue along this path Unions will eventually cease to exist. Yea we can put part of the blame on the politicians but the bulk goes to those leaders who are responsible for the dircetion of our unions and their lack of action. Unions were born in disruptions and strikes, they are dying in their sleep, how pathetic.
If you want real change you need to get people off their ass and vote for politicians who care about working people.
Are they going to negotiate with the company? Are they likely to pass laws that tilt things in labors favor? Lets face it both the Republicans and Democrats are both owned by big business and special interests groups. You can not rely on the system to insure a good contract, you must rely on using your labor as your leverage. You need to start from the bottom up, get a new union first, then work your way up.
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11 AM pitguy wrote:
18 AM cat 111 wrote:
34 PM pitguy wrote:
31 PM WNjetdoc wrote:
