ALPA PHL LEC Update - June 23, 2007

[Callsign_Cactus]

Close to being correct - I have edited your sentence below so it is factual.

"With the process that is underway and events that will unfold in the very near future, I believe the East pilots and their desires will become irrelevant."

With the process that is underway and events that will unfold in the very near future, I believe the AWA pilots and their desires will become irrelevant.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[CactusFlyr]

With the process that is underway and events that will unfold in the very near future, I believe the AWA pilots and their desires will become irrelevant.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

not even worth a response. 🙁

 

[exB717Flyer]

not even worth a response. 🙁

Dude, practically nothing that guy or USSnarky has written is worth a response. Hotheads aren't worth the effort. Events will unfold regardless.

 

[ClueByFour]

With the process that is underway and events that will unfold in the very near future, I believe the AWA pilots and their desires will become irrelevant.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

You guys can't get around the list by dumping ALPA. You really need to find lawyers who are good. I'd suggest asking the AWA MEC for a reference.

Dumping ALPA does nothing to undo Nicolau. Not a damn thing. The list is binding upon the successor.

Your desire to dump ALPA is irrelevant.

 

[ussnark]

well just one possible solution, one thing is for certain no company can continue to sustain continued losses for very long, and big money backing this company wont stand around for long watching it happen again. this needs to be put behind it before the company can move forward at all.

Well thought out.

Problem is, it acknowledges a flawed arbitration, one that does not conform to ALPA's own policy. Attempting to "fix" a flawed arbitration in an attempt to save face will result in failure. I am not certain why we continue to support flawed policy with a patchwork of bandages and crutches.

I will not be here in twenty years, but would not like to leave such a pathetic legacy.

The "award" needs to be dumped in its entirety as there is only so much lipstick one can apply to a pig, which remains true to its nature.

BTW, the east pilots are not leaving ALPA. They would be simply (and finally) acknowledging that ALPA has left them.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

The EC and most OAL MECs do not think there was a flawed arbitration nor do they think there is a flawed policy. If anything, this arbitration award strongly endorses current ALPA merger policy, and will send an important message to all that it is best to negotiate rather then let a third party decide your fate.

The award will never be dumped so just forget about it and move on - it is the only right choice. The alternatives are just going to continue to bring you more emotional pain and anguish.

Your last statement conflicts what our friend USA320Pilot says is a sure bet.

Well thought out.

Problem is, it acknowledges a flawed arbitration, one that does not conform to ALPA's own policy. Attempting to "fix" a flawed arbitration in an attempt to save face will result in failure. I am not certain why we continue to support flawed policy with a patchwork of bandages and crutches.

I will not be here in twenty years, but would not like to leave such a pathetic legacy.

The "award" needs to be dumped in its entirety as there is only so much lipstick one can apply to a pig, which remains true to its nature.

BTW, the east pilots are not leaving ALPA. They would be simply (and finally) acknowledging that ALPA has left them.

 

[pilot]

How come no one has taken my bet?

pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

Callsign Cactus,

Callsing Cactus said: "The award will never be dumped so just forget about it and move on - it is the only right choice. The alternatives are just going to continue to bring you more emotional pain and anguish."

USA320Pilot comments: I have never seen such solidarity in the East pilot group than I do now. The East pilots will never "just forget about it and move on." Everybody should have seen how united the East pilot group is when about 450 pilots howed up on their day off in Herndon, VA for the May 21 EC meeting.

The alternatives could prevent the two pilot groups from integrating for nearly a decade. Here is why:

1. If the EC does not intervene expect ALPA to be removed from the East property and then the West property.

The emotion is very high on the East property and after losing the DB plan even the senior guys want to boot the Association off of the property.

2. The West pilot group is even more apathetic than the East pilot group. One thing to keep in mind regarding removing ALPA at AWA, they have a number of pilots who never get involved in anything. Reference the recent assessment vote: only 60% participation. The last three recalls: 48%. Even in the last regularly scheduled elections, December 2005: 54%. A special election to fill the vacancy when John Jurik resigned as F/O Rep, in July 2006: 28%.

I don't sense much interest in keeping or removing ALPA from most of the West senior (and elderly) Captains. There is still a lot of anger over ALPA's age 60 stance. But, I do believe from discussions with AWA pilots there are about 15% who would be looking for any excuse to get rid of ALPA.

3. There are significant risks to the AWA pilot group to enter into Section VI negotiations, where you would have zero US Airways pilot support. Click here for more information.

4. The US Airways pilots are seeking a pay raise outside of JNC talks because of Doug Parker's phone call to Jack Stephan, which created the interest and discussions. If the company is going to provide a pay raise outside of JNC talks then the US Airways pilots would be foolish not to take it. Furthermore, every pilot should hope another pilot or employee group gets a pay raise.

5. The US Airways pilots cannot be forced to obtain a new contract while they have a contract in place. The US Airways CBA is not amendable until January 1, 2010. At that point the parties would enter into negotations, possibly mediation, a 30-day cooling off period, and then a strike. The last time the AWA pilots went through this process it took 4 years to get a deal.

Therefore, by doing nothing the US Airways pilots can delay the Nicolau Award for at least 7 years.

Meanwhile, the US Airways pilots would keep all of the East Coast-based flying, keep all of their important attrition movement, obtain meaningful pay raises with reserves becoming blockholders, First Officers becoming Captains, narrowody pilots becoming widebody pilots, First Officers becoming EMB-190 Captains, etc.

What would the West pilots get? Stagnation and the risk of Section VI negotiations. Furthermore, there is nothing you can do to stop this and the toxic relationship that will continue to grow.

Do I like this? No, of course not, but the AWA pilots refused to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution leaving the US Airways pilots no option.

Regards,

USAPilot

 

[Bear96]

Do I like this? No, of course not, but the AWA pilots refused to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution leaving the US Airways pilots no option.

But the East refusing to comply with the arbitration award -- that is OK.

 

[Junebug172]

The emotion is very high on the East property and after losing the DB plan even the senior guys want to boot the Association off of the property.

I've asked this question MANY times with no one from the east bothering to answer.

Hypothetically, if ALPA is no longer our CB agent, who will take over.

I would like to see options and a little explanation as to why they would be better.




Doug Parker's phone call to Jack Stephan,

Doug did not call Jack. Please, move away from this.

 

[TechBoy]

No, of course not, but the AWA pilots refused to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution leaving the US Airways pilots no option.

How about complying with a legally binding arbitration decision?

To call your reasoning convoluted would be an insult to convoluted reasoning.

Were you the kid who always threw the gameboard across the room when you didn't win the game?

 

[AWA320]

Callsign Cactus,

Callsing Cactus said: "The award will never be dumped so just forget about it and move on - it is the only right choice. The alternatives are just going to continue to bring you more emotional pain and anguish."

USA320Pilot comments: I have never seen such solidarity in the East pilot group than I do now. The East pilots will never "just forget about it and move on." Everybody should have seen how united the East pilot group is when about 450 pilots howed up on their day off in Herndon, VA for the May 21 EC meeting.

The alternatives could prevent the two pilot groups from integrating for nearly a decade. Here is why:

1. If the EC does not intervene expect ALPA to be removed from the East property and then the West property.

The emotion is very high on the East property and after losing the DB plan even the senior guys want to boot the Association off of the property.

2. The West pilot group is even more apathetic than the East pilot group. One thing to keep in mind regarding removing ALPA at AWA, they have a number of pilots who never get involved in anything. Reference the recent assessment vote: only 60% participation. The last three recalls: 48%. Even in the last regularly scheduled elections, December 2005: 54%. A special election to fill the vacancy when John Jurik resigned as F/O Rep, in July 2006: 28%.

I don't sense much interest in keeping or removing ALPA from most of the West senior (and elderly) Captains. There is still a lot of anger over ALPA's age 60 stance. But, I do believe from discussions with AWA pilots there are about 15% who would be looking for any excuse to get rid of ALPA.

3. There are significant risks to the AWA pilot group to enter into Section VI negotiations, where you would have zero US Airways pilot support. Click here for more information.

4. The US Airways pilots are seeking a pay raise outside of JNC talks because of Doug Parker's phone call to Jack Stephan, which created the interest and discussions. If the company is going to provide a pay raise outside of JNC talks then the US Airways pilots would be foolish not to take it. Furthermore, every pilot should hope another pilot or employee group gets a pay raise.

5. The US Airways pilots cannot be forced to obtain a new contract while they have a contract in place. The US Airways CBA is not amendable until January 1, 2010. At that point the parties would enter into negotations, possibly mediation, a 30-day cooling off period, and then a strike. The last time the AWA pilots went through this process it took 4 years to get a deal.

Therefore, by doing nothing the US Airways pilots can delay the Nicolau Award for at least 7 years.

Meanwhile, the US Airways pilots would keep all of the East Coast-based flying, keep all of their important attrition movement, obtain meaningful pay raises with reserves becoming blockholders, First Officers becoming Captains, narrowody pilots becoming widebody pilots, First Officers becoming EMB-190 Captains, etc.

What would the West pilots get? Stagnation and the risk of Section VI negotiations. Furthermore, there is nothing you can do to stop this and the toxic relationship that will continue to grow.

Do I like this? No, of course not, but the AWA pilots refused to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution leaving the US Airways pilots no option.

Regards,

USAPilot

You see Chippy, this is the problem with your source UTURN and it's self appointed king the ALPA suspended Herb Holland! Yes many on the west property are in fact apathetic to non sense and in fighting but you can best believe that under the current circumstances we will come out and vote and ALPA will NOT be voted off this property.

UTurn has about as much credibility on our property as milli vanilli claiming they sang the songs! You are doing nothing but wasting your time by not attempting to get back pay and benefits thru a lucrative contract. While you stall for what is a losing effort your pilots will continue to suffer bankruptcy wages. Parker has already stated publically that you will NOT get parity without a joint contract. To continue to beg is also a waste of your pilots time and energy. Energy better served attempting to gain one of the best contracts the industry.

If the time passes and we as a whole lose leverage due to the economy who's to blame here?? You on the east!! You did the same thing by not giving an inch in the arb case. So if you are really content with LOA 93 stop begging Parker and writing usless resolutions that are not binding on the company in any way. You have one shot and one shot ONLY and that's to gain in pay and benefits thru a joint contract. Now you want to keep looking like a fool? Keep trusting in UTURN and those who run it. They haven't been right yet.

Read your attorneys statement below, it should turns some of the lights on for you...

 

[ableoneable]

Labor Pains for Union-Side Labor Firm
Emma Schwartz
Legal Times
11-14-2005


Baptiste & Wilder, a union-side labor firm and longtime outside counsel to the Teamsters, is having a bit of labor trouble of its own.

Last year the firm was hit with a malpractice suit by former client Martha Lockwood, whom the firm represented in a wrongful-termination suit in the mid-1990s.
Lockwood alleges attorneys Robert Baptiste and Patrick Szymanski failed to follow up on a lawsuit for defamation against her former supervisors and neglected to tell her that the case had been dismissed.

Lockwood, who hired attorney Christopher Hoge of Crowley, Hoge & Fein, is seeking $1.5 million in damages.

Eccleston & Wolf attorney Alfred Scanlan, who is representing the firm, denies the charges.

But the firm's insurance company is already refusing to foot the bill.

In filings last month in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, the American Guarantee and Liability Insurance Co., represented by Carr & Maloney attorney William Carter, says the alleged activity is not covered under its policy and accuses Baptiste & Wilder of failing to bring the claims to the company’s attention in a timely manner.

The company cited three letters Lockwood filed in 2002 inquiring about her case as evidence that the attorneys had a "reasonable basis" to anticipate their acts "might be the basis of a claim prior to the inception of the Policy."

 

[nostradamus]

Dude, practically nothing that guy or USSnarky has written is worth a response. Hotheads aren't worth the effort. Events will unfold regardless.

Above is an example of a America West Pilot Dude.

Hey Dude, have you seen my airplane? Hey dude, this is your future Usairways captain speaking.

Dude, you've got to read this

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I'll keep this quick and give you counter points.

I understand the solidarity you speak of, but I also understand the composition of the 450 that showed up more than you know.

DP never called JS and you know it – it was Jack that called DP and begged. DP will never give east a raise without a joint contract and you can take that to the bank. If anyone in your MEC is promising that, or even alluding to DPs willingness to talk about that outside of the JNC, well, then they ought to be metaphorically hung for fraud.

Item 5 is no doubt true, but I can't imagine your captains turning down a $30,000+/year raise until 2011 or beyond. Let's see now, at a minimum that means they would be throwing away $120,000 buckaroos. Using your number: 7 years = $210,000. Now that’s a lot of money!!! The screwed up deal here is the AWA pilots will only see a small fraction of that and therein lies the real problem folks. East might not have to worry about voting in a contract because the west will not vote for anything that does not recognize the sacrifices we have made. I know, I know, they pale in comparison to your sob stories, so please spare us from any more of them.

You are going to see relatively equal stagnation in the east/west regardless of the events taken place over the Nic list. This will worsen significantly when age 60 changes to 65 (against this but it will happen). At that point, where is the incentive in not obtaining a joint contract then?

Callsign Cactus,

Callsing Cactus said: "The award will never be dumped so just forget about it and move on - it is the only right choice. The alternatives are just going to continue to bring you more emotional pain and anguish."

USA320Pilot comments: I have never seen such solidarity in the East pilot group than I do now. The East pilots will never "just forget about it and move on." Everybody should have seen how united the East pilot group is when about 450 pilots howed up on their day off in Herndon, VA for the May 21 EC meeting.

The alternatives could prevent the two pilot groups from integrating for nearly a decade. Here is why:

1. If the EC does not intervene expect ALPA to be removed from the East property and then the West property.

The emotion is very high on the East property and after losing the DB plan even the senior guys want to boot the Association off of the property.

2. The West pilot group is even more apathetic than the East pilot group. One thing to keep in mind regarding removing ALPA at AWA, they have a number of pilots who never get involved in anything. Reference the recent assessment vote: only 60% participation. The last three recalls: 48%. Even in the last regularly scheduled elections, December 2005: 54%. A special election to fill the vacancy when John Jurik resigned as F/O Rep, in July 2006: 28%.

I don't sense much interest in keeping or removing ALPA from most of the West senior (and elderly) Captains. There is still a lot of anger over ALPA's age 60 stance. But, I do believe from discussions with AWA pilots there are about 15% who would be looking for any excuse to get rid of ALPA.

3. There are significant risks to the AWA pilot group to enter into Section VI negotiations, where you would have zero US Airways pilot support. Click here for more information.

4. The US Airways pilots are seeking a pay raise outside of JNC talks because of Doug Parker's phone call to Jack Stephan, which created the interest and discussions. If the company is going to provide a pay raise outside of JNC talks then the US Airways pilots would be foolish not to take it. Furthermore, every pilot should hope another pilot or employee group gets a pay raise.

5. The US Airways pilots cannot be forced to obtain a new contract while they have a contract in place. The US Airways CBA is not amendable until January 1, 2010. At that point the parties would enter into negotations, possibly mediation, a 30-day cooling off period, and then a strike. The last time the AWA pilots went through this process it took 4 years to get a deal.

Therefore, by doing nothing the US Airways pilots can delay the Nicolau Award for at least 7 years.

Meanwhile, the US Airways pilots would keep all of the East Coast-based flying, keep all of their important attrition movement, obtain meaningful pay raises with reserves becoming blockholders, First Officers becoming Captains, narrowody pilots becoming widebody pilots, First Officers becoming EMB-190 Captains, etc.

What would the West pilots get? Stagnation and the risk of Section VI negotiations. Furthermore, there is nothing you can do to stop this and the toxic relationship that will continue to grow.

Do I like this? No, of course not, but the AWA pilots refused to comply with the EC's May 24 resolution leaving the US Airways pilots no option.

Regards,

USAPilot