ALPA Thread 12/30 to 1/6--ALL ALPA/USAPA discussed here

[Low&away]

Sorry to sound so harsh but, years of service don't mean squat when your furloughed. If it did you'd see it in the merger policy. What you DO see however is "career expectations" at time of merger. And what most east guys have a hard time swallowing is.... mine was greater than theirs, age and longevity has nothing to do with it. I don't mine being at the bottom of the list (that's where I was, and that's where I should be) What I don't want is to be at the bottom of the furloughed list. I will not pay back with my career what someone else took away.

You make ALPA merger policy sound like it's written in stone - deliberated by wise men. Well it's far from an altruistic process. It's more like watching a pack of Wolves feed on fresh kill. Merger policy will change again to suit the players that have the most to loose or gain. Hypothetical of course, but to illustrate a point, if UAL and Delta had an average age of say 58, ALPA merger policy would change to DOH by weeks end. We pay Union Dues to an organization that changes policy to please the most powerful constituents. This bloodletting allowed an Arbitration to be finalized in the coliseum for (Rome,ALPA) to look on and learn at the expense of a small constituent. Regardless of your perspective it's a raw deal for all involved. Weather ALPA remains on the property or not, The in house ALPA certified Nicolau award is proving to be what some said it would be on May 03, 2007 (a full fledged disaster). Rationalizations abound regarding the fairness of the Nicolau award - it will change no ones mind because there is to much to gain and to much to loose. I have been an ALPA member for 26 years and it has devolved into a revenue machine. ALPA is corrupt. It's a natural progression for any gigantic association or union. One thing I am certain of, "ALPA's days are numbered". One more botched-up Merger by a big player and the house of cards will come crashing down.

 

[prechilill]

But if USAPA and Doug negotiate to ignore it forever and sign a new contract

You cannot even get Doug to give you pay parity with the west.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You cannot even get Doug to give you pay parity with the west.

Since when have facts ever interfered with delusional dreamers?

 

[Phoenix]

Contract talks are voluntary until you grasp the 2 (two) parts to this you'll never understand. Just look at Atlas/ Polar: merger announced 2004, seniority list 2006 yet to even have the first JNC talks 2008.

Nothing binding about a merged contract.

Though it is a disappointment, ALPA's failure in mergers should really come as no surprise to us. Neither should we be surprised to find that nothing that ALPA's costly association produces is in truth "binding". We had hoped there were sufficient numbers of ALPA leaders to do the right thing.

Alas, NOTHING is sacred to ALPA; not even seniority. If leaders of an organization start with the premise that nothing is sacred (except the preservation of their own position--necessitating that all else is expendable) then it is not possible to have any truly, lasting, binding outcomes. Everything is relative to the changing circumstances as interpreted by ALPA leaders, in light of their own benefits.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I thought this had some pretty hard logic to it... Seems as though the same folk "fighting to stop the abuse" from ALPA (USAPA) are in fact ALPA themselves sucking on momma's you-know-what all while secretly supporting their new union.

...Who was it that said those elected to USAPA positions will be different...?

Recently, the Philadelphia Council 41 letter (41 Update 12-27-07) contained a message from a self proclaimed USAPA supporter. Apparently the Philadelphia representatives are supporting USAPA while pretending to be ALPA representatives. They haven’t got the guts to cut their ties with ALPA. (These are the same fellows who castigate others for “feeding at the ALPA trough.â€￾) In fact, the Philadelphia representatives, Eric Rowe and Dave Ciabattoni , made solemn oaths to “immediately resign from ALPA the instant the seniority list was passed to management.â€￾ So much for solemn oaths.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I thought this had some pretty hard logic to it... Seems as though the same folk "fighting to stop the abuse" from ALPA (USAPA) are in fact ALPA themselves sucking on momma's you-know-what all while secretly supporting their new union.

...Who was it that said those elected to USAPA positions will be different...?

Recently, the Philadelphia Council 41 letter (41 Update 12-27-07) contained a message from a self proclaimed USAPA supporter. Apparently the Philadelphia representatives are supporting USAPA while pretending to be ALPA representatives. They haven’t got the guts to cut their ties with ALPA. (These are the same fellows who castigate others for “feeding at the ALPA trough.â€￾) In fact, the Philadelphia representatives, Eric Rowe and Dave Ciabattoni , made solemn oaths to “immediately resign from ALPA the instant the seniority list was passed to management.â€￾ So much for solemn oaths.

Personally, I am very grateful that Eric and Dave have NOT resigned, as well as the many committee members whose hearts are with USAPA. Having these effective leaders in place through the changeover (which will be instantaneous) will be tremendously helpful. Besides, it keeps those offices and jobs from being filled by ALPA lemmings and lord only knows how much damage the ALPA dupes could do in the few short weeks until the election.

The idea of USAPA is NOT to throw the baby out with the bath water by getting rid of everybody associated with ALPA. We want to keep the wheat and throw away the chaff. The chaff being the non-member elected MEC officers and the Herndon leeches, as well as their ancient, undemocratic policies.

 

[P51Pilot]

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/roadshows.htm

In our continuing effort to bring your union to you, USAPA held the first of many Road Shows, this one at the PHL Marriott on December 10th.

USAPA attorneys, officers and volunteers were present to answer questions from the pilot group. Opening statements were made by USAPA President Stephen Bradford and USAPA Lead Counsel Lee Seham, and were followed by statements and discussions by Attorney Scott Peterson and USAPA Insurance volunteer Jed Thomas. Communications volunteer Scott Theuer responded to questions that have been submitted by email concerning negotiations and committee staffing. Retired TWA Captain Leroy (Bud) Bensel addressed the pilots concerning ALPA’s failure to stand by the TWA pilots. Throughout the remainder of the day, USAPA attorneys, officers and volunteers responded to a variety of questions and concerns from the pilots.

We were pleased by the level of attendance, with many pilots taking time between flights to drop in and listen to the proceedings. For the benefit of those unable to attend this Road Show, it was professionally video-taped. The video masters are currently being digitized for streaming, and the first of many segments are available below. We have broken the video into segments by subject, so that you may watch those of interest to you.

Editing and digitizing of the remainder of the material continues, and we anticipate having it posted in the next few days

Please watch the site for upcoming road show dates.

Road Show Segments By Topic

Introduction

Career Expectations

Future Mergers

Nicolau Award and current ALPA litigation

Political aspects of USAPA




Why an independent union is superior

Voting in the NMB election

Negating the Nicolau award

TWA/Ozark merger

 

[AAA73Pilot]

For those interested, here is a link to the USAPA Constitution and ByLaws.

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/misc_docs/USA...onstitution.pdf

 

[Tiger 1050]

Personally, I am very grateful that Eric and Dave have NOT resigned, as well as the many committee members whose hearts are with USAPA. Having these effective leaders in place through the changeover (which will be instantaneous) will be tremendously helpful. Besides, it keeps those offices and jobs from being filled by ALPA lemmings and lord only knows how much damage the ALPA dupes could do in the few short weeks until the election.

The idea of USAPA is NOT to throw the baby out with the bath water by getting rid of everybody associated with ALPA. We want to keep the wheat and throw away the chaff. The chaff being the non-member elected MEC officers and the Herndon leeches, as well as their ancient, undemocratic policies.

I find it interesting that our emotions play such a large part in how we perceive the world around us considering we are by our nature a more logically/scientifically minded bunch...

Anyway I suppose it doesn't matter much. Most of the darts we throw back and forth are, as EastUS put it once, just venting. I am curious though concerning the demographics of USAPA supporters. Is it more F/O's? Or is it Capt's? Also is it more popular in the north? Or does it share the same level of support from the south as well? I ask because the more East pilots I meet (and most have been very cordial and pleasant to speak with) the more I am finding that it is mostly supported by F/O's (understandable) and most of the support comes from the north. I am now inclined to believe this more than in the past due to the fact that it seems CLT is not happy with the idea of USAPA. And let's face it the F/O's have far more to gain from their delusions of DOH. With or without restrictions.

What I don't understand is how USAPA or at least their supporters on this board can toss aside the notion that they will in fact be sued? If there is one change to the Nicolau whether through CBA negotiations or otherwise you have to know that USAPA will be served with a DFR suit. This is not a threat from me per se but something that will happen in this never ending battle between the east and west. No matter the financial support from the membership, which will be from east pilots only, or lines of credit available it will prove to be very costly to say the least. This would be more than difficult for any new entity in the early stages of its existence. As far as not paying dues... Well let's just say that there are many creative ways to avoid paying them. So in the end you'll have a broken down union drowning in debt with no real future to provide the representation they promise.

Is this doom and gloom. Maybe. Is this playing the fear card to further my own agenda? For the most part yes. But nonetheless it is difficult to refute this potential outcome. Whether or not you agree the west is just as capable as the east in playing the extortion game. And as you know this "game" does not lend itself to the promotion of a good contract. But I can live with that...

 

[Leonidas]

I am glad to see that it's not all about the Nicolau, Hilarious.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I just watched a linked video of the usapa interim president giving an road show introduction. Is that the most charismatic guy you could find? I don't see how a rational thinking pilot could look at the facts, watch that pathetic showing, and then go vote for usapa.

Those blinded by emotions yes, but rational folks, no.

ps. If you bring a show to Phx, I'll show up.

 

[nostradamus]

I find it interesting that our emotions play such a large part in how we perceive the world around us considering we are by our nature a more logically/scientifically minded bunch...

As far as not paying dues... Well let's just say that there are many creative ways to avoid paying them. So in the end you'll have a broken down union drowning in debt with no real future to provide the representation they promise.

Is this doom and gloom. Maybe. Is this playing the fear card to further my own agenda? For the most part yes. But nonetheless it is difficult to refute this potential outcome. Whether or not you agree the west is just as capable as the east in playing the extortion game. And as you know this "game" does not lend itself to the promotion of a good contract. But I can live with that...

Gender based emotions you have no control over. You despise scorched earth policy unless it suits your needs.

The gates will be stormed in the next week as far as USAPA goes. Prater and Parker have been talking about their mutual benefits in getting this thing going. You will have frequent battles won, but the war will be lost. The inability to put yourself in the shoes of others will ultimately decide your fate.

 

[Bob Loblaw]

You make ALPA merger policy sound like it's written in stone - deliberated by wise men. Well it's far from an altruistic process. It's more like watching a pack of Wolves feed on fresh kill. Merger policy will change again to suit the players that have the most to loose or gain..... I have been an ALPA member for 26 years and it has devolved into a revenue machine. ALPA is corrupt. It's a natural progression for any gigantic association or union. One thing I am certain of, "ALPA's days are numbered". One more botched-up Merger by a big player and the house of cards will come crashing down.

Low&away,

I congratulate you on making the case against democratic and representational ideals. You make the case for Communism and dictatorships so well! The merger policy was not written by anyone in Washington or at the upper echelons of the union. It was written by line pilots. Your brothers. The ones you have a drink with. Watch football with. Tell stories with. It was in part driven by line pilots at AAA as they had a seat at the very table that actually wrote the current policy. Your argument is not with some monolith body in a far away place. It is with the very pilots that you fly with and associate with. It is with your neighbor, your fellow church goer, your fellow sim partner. They are the ones that wrote the policy that resulted in this situation.

If you have no faith in the guys you work and live with every day then I can have no faith in their attempt to circumvent American democratic principles and set up an organization that has a demonstrated and proven record of screwing their fellow family members.

If your argument is against your fellow professional aviators who wrote every current ALPA policy and approved every salary and benefits package for ALPA employees and approves each and every flight pay loss request for your rep then it is obvious to me that no one dare trust their brethren ever again in this industry. We are all just too greedy for our own good! And I mean USAPA to the Nth degree. Never in my 34 years in this industry have I seen such arrogance, impetuousness, entitlement and greed as I have seen among those promoting USAPA. May they all fail miserably in their efforts and in advancing in this profession for the sake of all the good professional pilots left in this country.

 

[CactusFlyr]

:blink: Puhleeeaze....you're killin' me At Eastern? I was told to expect a long and very rewading career. At PSA?..An upgrade to MD80 Captain within no more than 5-7 years.

Parker: "Without this merger, as a three year FO you would probably be out of a job" :blink:

I don't disagree that future expansion should include west pilots...but not at "super seniority" positions. What's the possible argument for such? Let me guess = You "brought" those jobs to the table? 😉

Can't have one of your furloughed pilots leap-frogging an active pilot. Never has, never will. I am on a furlough list somewhere and do not expect to jump an active pilot should a merger take place. I really don't expect to have a job if this happens. Your furloughees should feel lucky to have a job.

 

[EastUS]

Low&away,

I congratulate you on making the case against democratic and representational ideals. You make the case for Communism and dictatorships so well! The merger policy was not written by anyone in Washington or at the upper echelons of the union. It was written by line pilots. Your brothers. The ones you have a drink with. Watch football with. Tell stories with. It was in part driven by line pilots at AAA as they had a seat at the very table that actually wrote the current policy. Your argument is not with some monolith body in a far away place. It is with the very pilots that you fly with and associate with. It is with your neighbor, your fellow church goer, your fellow sim partner. They are the ones that wrote the policy that resulted in this situation.

If you have no faith in the guys you work and live with every day then I can have no faith in their attempt to circumvent American democratic principles and set up an organization that has a demonstrated and proven record of screwing their fellow family members.

If your argument is against your fellow professional aviators who wrote every current ALPA policy and approved every salary and benefits package for ALPA employees and approves each and every flight pay loss request for your rep then it is obvious to me that no one dare trust their brethren ever again in this industry. We are all just too greedy for our own good! And I mean USAPA to the Nth degree. Never in my 34 years in this industry have I seen such arrogance, impetuousness, entitlement and greed as I have seen among those promoting USAPA. May they all fail miserably in their efforts and in advancing in this profession for the sake of all the good professional pilots left in this country.

Congrats....that qualifies as perhaps the most utterly absurd thing I've yet seen posted here. By your same "logic": Any refutation of Stalin would have been an indictment of the entire "Workers' Paradise" that was the Soviet Union...Gulags and all, and would have necessarilly also have aknowledged mistrust in a fellow "Comrade", another "worker"/etc..and apparently; "Your brothers"..or...just possibly...it would have simply denoted some actual awareness on the denouncer's part. Let me see: Seeking the ending of a corrupt and innefective "Union" equates to an assault on democratice ideals, and a betrayal of one's "brothers"???...uhm...OK. Why do I get visions of an outtake from Animal House wherein the Delta's exit a hearing noting: "Isnt' that an attack on the entire fraternity system?...and concludes "And isn't that an attack on the entire democratic system?...Well...I'm not going to sit around while you attack America"..or much to that effect 😉

"If you have no faith in the guys you work and live with every day" News flash for your benefit = The Alpo sorts I want gone don't "work and live with every day" anyone by way of line pilots...They'd have to actually fly occassionally to manage that 😉

"May they all fail miserably in their efforts and in advancing in this profession for the sake of all the good professional pilots left in this country." Just curious, as I could use a decent chuckle: What's your definition of "all the" or even a single "good"..."professional pilot"? What defines your notions of "good"? You seem to think it utterly selfish that any might not eagerly wish for their actual junior "brothers" to have decades of seniority taken from them by virtual new hires. Clearly; you've assigned yourself as fully worthy of a "good" judge's robe here, presumably based upon yourself as a model....I'm all ears.....This oughta' be good. 😉

PS: While you're touting up some fantasized assault on democratic and representational ideals...enlighten us all as to where/how dissent plays it's proper part in the process? I seem to recall that establishing those very ideals was a result of revolution.