ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[Edward]

Folks here is the new thread. Please remember to stay on topic & not make it personal. Thanks.

 

[hp_fa]

From the closed topic, a message EastUS had posted. I also hope the mod doesn't get upset that I copied this small part, but I wanted to answer it in context.

He quoted me.

"The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding."

His response.

"If you call IGNORANCE of the MEC as being sold out then I guess I would agree with you. And again, we are taking care of that now....with an election for a NEW union. WE HAVE THAT RIGHT! And who are you and everyone else to tell us HOW TO VOTE? Don't we have that right...for whatever reason? That is what "secret" ballots are all about in any democracy. NO?"

I take issue with the fourth sentence in that I am not telling anyone how to vote. What I was trying to do is frame a discussion from what I percieve as the arguments being advanced by both sides to the issue of USAPA or ALPA. Maybe what I was trying to frame, in an unemotional way, was what is the root justification for the proposed change in unions and what got everyone to this point.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

AWA320 wrote Today, 07:52 PM Post #275

Wow some heads are really hard as granite! The pilots are ALPA PERIOD! You and your cronnies seem to think that ALPA is this other entity when in reality it's the pilots. ALPA never voted not once to give away your pension YOU DID!! ALPA never voted on LOA93 YOU DID!! So it's up to YOU to save your own bacon because who is ALPA??? YOU ARE!! lights coming on yet or do you need more remedial??

I want you to get on with your vote as well as that is the quickest way to ensure the demise of USAir. Once they are gone and the industry is rid of their "YOU OWE ME" mentality the better off the rest of us will be!

No, I think it's you who has the problem. Pilots = ALPA? You have got to be kidding, right? When a LEC or MEC goes against Nationals wishes, well guess what oh ALPA Rep, they get loyalty oaths and trusteeship. As for the pension, there has been so much posted on how it was given away, you will never get it. But the blame lies squarely on that esteemed finance advisor's in Herndon who abandoned the MEC in the 11th hour. After the fact we find out the company cooked the books to make it look worse than it really was. Where was the advisor's then? Now? Why hasn't national screamed bloody murder at finding the lies. Yep bamboozled again like a good little group in bed with management. LOA93? Interesting you bring that up. 57% supposedly voted for LOA93. It is what national wanted. I can't prove it, but ever since the vote, the actual tally and voting records seem to have disappeared. Or I've been told they are unavailable. Surprising isn't it? No one outside of ALPA ever saw the actual figures, we were just informed of the results. So who knows what the pilots really voted for. But it's what we got and we're living with it. For your information, we are saving our bacon. This time without the fine help coming out of Herndon. Is this what bothers you? That we just may not need a Mothership? Do you need more remedial?

Your second paragraph is quite surprising coming from a man in your position. You want the demise of your company? Wow! I'm impressed. Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

ClueByFour wrote: Yesterday, 08:50 PM Post #282

Spare us. It's an end-run (trying to abuse the will of the majority who did not like what the arbitrator had to say) attempt. Land grab. That's it.

Not from my point of view. So we disagree, no surprise there.

Had you been the least little bit smart about it the first time, this would not be an issue. The DOH/LOS land grab did not work. What USAPA is trying will not achieve that end. You had your appeal and lost. You will lose by trying the cramdown. It's a shame it's being sold as a way to fix the arbitration. That won't happen. (nor morally should it--there is no justification for someone without a job at the time of the merger going anywhere except behind everyone who brought a job to the merger). East could have avoided the very raw deal it got regarding it's attrition had the "majority" been willing to let the folks running the show move off DOH/LOS. It did not, and paid the price. Can't fix stupid (See below).

How you came to that conclusion is beyond me. Clue, you still have no Clue. The majority did speak. Our appeal? Lets see, ALPA arbitration, ALPA EC appeal. With USAPA elected where is ALPA again?

Any attempt to reorder a combined list to DOH won't clear the judge. In fact, it might not clear a vote--since if you try (out of a sense of entitlement and greed) to staple the West, every single Shuttle and Piedmont guy might just decide they want DOH. And then what?

Judge? I know you have to try, but it will fail. Your opinion and my opinion will always differ. No news there. But your FUD problem is the Shuttle and Empire seniority lived/lives in the current contract. But since you're spreading even more FUD, the Piedmont pilots did get date of hire. To quote another poster, "Did you get the memo?" Once a list gets implemented it's a done deal. The new USAPA negotiated list will get implemented when we have a new contract. Your counting on Doug to help? He doesn't care, more than one of you have told me that.

This proves that you can get stupid to vote, but still can't fix stupid.

Your problem is you can't recognize what's smart and what's stupid.

Can we get another "Let's vote?" It's such a cute tagline. It does not for a second hide what's actually going on, or why.

We're not hiding anything. It's too bad you don't agree with what you see happening. Oh well.

 

[700UW]

Ask the former Empire Pilots who were PI about them NOT getting DOH.

And didnt PI get slotted?

 

[dariencc]

And didnt PI get slotted?

Wrong again, oh Great One.

 

[700UW]

I asked a question, I did not make a statement.

 

[end_of_alpa]

From the closed topic, a message EastUS had posted. I also hope the mod doesn't get upset that I copied this small part, but I wanted to answer it in context.

He quoted me.

"The bottom line as I see it is you guys feel sold out by the people you elected to the MEC leadership positions, you didn't pay attention to warning signs when things were still going pretty well, and took no action when you could or should have to have kept the situation under control before Nicolau ever heard the arbitration proceeding."

His response.

"If you call IGNORANCE of the MEC as being sold out then I guess I would agree with you. And again, we are taking care of that now....with an election for a NEW union. WE HAVE THAT RIGHT! And who are you and everyone else to tell us HOW TO VOTE? Don't we have that right...for whatever reason? That is what "secret" ballots are all about in any democracy. NO?"

I take issue with the fourth sentence in that I am not telling anyone how to vote. What I was trying to do is frame a discussion from what I percieve as the arguments being advanced by both sides to the issue of USAPA or ALPA. Maybe what I was trying to frame, in an unemotional way, was what is the root justification for the proposed change in unions and what got everyone to this point.

That was my quote you were referring to. I understand you are not telling anyone HOW to vote. However, the implication on this web board is that a vote for USAPA is flawed logic is flat out WRONG. Maybe you are not saying that, but everytime this direction of thread that crops up under the "unemotional" way always gets hijacked into the "We bought you" crowd or the "final and binding" crowd which THEN states "that's no reason to vote a new union in"?

What got us into this "mess" is the "throw it all at the wall" entitlement mentality and take what you get. The East has not, and never did want, any West pilots position. Every group on this property got date of hire, but us. Why does that work for EVERYONE but pilots? Ever wonder THAT? Did anyone think as West pilots that maybe IF a SENIORITY solution was agreed to FIRST, then the economic one, we WOULDN'T be here today? It takes TWO MEC'S to "tango" on this issue. NOT ONE!

If you are a HPFA do you believe your years of service with HP are more valuable than an East FA? Is DOH unfair to YOU? If so, why are YOU not screaming the virtues of new union?

Besides, the price of oil is hurting EVERY CARRIER now. See:

"Northwest Airlines CEO Doug Steenland called $105 oil a "serious budget-breaker" on Monday and warned that high fuel costs are a "difficult financial challenge" for the carrier that emerged from bankruptcy just nine months ago."

http://investing.businessweek.com/research...&symbol=DAL

Hard times are coming upon the airline industry and the time for an improved contract is all but over. Welcome to the real world. It is going to get "ugly" for ALPA carriers. That is MY main reason for voting for USAPA. Independent is the BEST way to go because when the going gets tough, the ALPA pilots unions are going to be scrambling for positioning. Just the fact, ma'am. We don't need to be any part of that....regardless of the seniority issue.

"But Wall Street analysts are now questioning the ability of network carriers to prosper on their own in light of current oil prices, so they envision more efficient operations through mergers. Analysts and airline executives also argue that merged carriers would have route networks that would strengthen passenger yields as well as boost overall revenue.

"If consolidation fails to unfold in the coming months, Northwest, Delta and some of their network peers will be smaller a year from now "given business models poorly positioned to withstand crude at $105 and a falloff in revenues," Credit Suisse analyst Daniel McKenzie said in a recent report."

McKenzie also favors big carrier mergers because the market share for low-cost carriers in the United States has grown from 15.4 percent in 2000 to 27 percent in 2007. As a result, low-cost carriers are setting prices on many routes, and Northwest and Delta have responded by shrinking their domestic capacity and focusing on international expansion.

Ray Neidl, an airline analyst from Calyon Securities, said that consolidation will occur through an "orderly process of planned mergers" or a "damaging bankruptcy process."

http://investing.businessweek.com/research...&symbol=DAL

Parker doesn't look so stupid now. He's waiting for the "bankruptcy" version. I think it's a smart move. IMHO.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Funny how the "east" mentality is the only ones that feel ALPA is wrong. NOT!

"The Delta pilot briefed on the talks said Northwest's negotiators insisted on so-called "fences" to reserve some of the highest-paying jobs flying its big Boeing 747s for its members. The Northwest union also wants a plan that would push thousands of Delta's pilots to the bottom of the seniority list, according to reports by The Associated Press and Minneapolis Star-Tribune. Delta's pilots generally have lower seniority than Northwest's because of a wave of early retirements by Delta's senior pilots before the carrier filed for bankruptcy in 2005.

Northwest's approach would run counter to the way Delta and its pilots union have merged pilots' seniority lists in earlier acquisitions. In mergers with Western Airlines in 1986 and part of Pan American World Airways in 1991, Delta blended the pilot groups in proportion to their relative size rather than strictly by date of hire.

The Delta and Northwest pilot unions have "two different philosophies," said Rich Terry, a Boeing 767 captain who has worked more than two decades at Delta. "In some ways, they're talking two different languages with this stuff."

Terry said he believes a merger of Northwest's Asian routes with Delta's European network will result in a stronger company. "When you look at the two route systems, it's hard to argue that it doesn't make a lot of sense," he said.

But there are signs of revolt among some Delta pilots who are unhappy about their union leaders' decision to go along with Delta's merger plans. Delta pilot Mike Stark and other members are seeking a recall of the four union leaders who head the union unit that represents about 4,000 Atlanta-based pilots.

The officials "have condoned secret negotiations and have already given their conditional approval to a merger with another airline" without consulting pilots, Stark said in his petition. He said the proposed merger could cause hundreds of pilots to lose their jobs. The group hopes to eventually recall the union's chairman, Lee Moak, but it's unclear how much support the group has.

Terry said he doesn't have a problem with the union's approach to the merger-related negotiations. "I think it's a practical idea," he said. "You can't negotiate something like this with 10,000 guys putting in their two cents."

Delta guys think DOH "pushes them" to the bottom of the seniority list. Let the games begin with oil prices skyrocketing with no end in sight.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And didnt PI get slotted?

700UW,

If I recall correctly, you've said in the past that the IAM uses the word "slotting" as meaning DOH. If that recollection is correct, the IAM would say that the PI pilots were slotted.

Generally speaking - there may be exceptions - pilot groups equate "slotting" with relative position. So when talking "pilot language", PI pilots weren't slotted but rather merged by DOH.

Jim

 

[john john]

So when talking "pilot language", PI pilots weren't slotted but rather merged by DOH.

Jim

Now ALPA is changing the rules in the middle of the game wouldn’t you say?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Now ALPA is changing the rules in the middle of the game wouldn’t you say?

Well, I was specifically talking about a difference in terminology between the IAM and pilot unions (again, with some possible exceptions though I don't personally know of any). My comment had nothing to do with changing rules.

However, since you bring it up, the ALPA rules changed slightly 1-1/2 decades ago, I wouldn't call that the middle of this game. Or even the last game that the East pilots played......

Jim

 

[john john]

ALPA rules changed slightly 1-1/2 decades ago, Jim

Why?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Why?

Because the majority of the the pilot representatives voted to change it. Or, I guess technically more accurate, the elected representatives of the majority of ALPA pilots voted to change it.

Jim

 

[john john]

the elected representatives of the majority of ALPA pilots voted to change it.

Jim

Petty ironic don’t you think giving the present situation