American/USAir-why not now?

[spectator]

I jumped into the conversation to cite DL's SEC filing which is all but a quarterly financial report showing that DL expects to set aside $175 million in profit sharing which amounts to more than $2000 per employee - and this is just for a quarter that based on the profit sharing amounts and the projected operating margins could amount to a $1B operating profit for DL for the quarter.

Kinda shoots down the theory that the network airline model is broken and that network airline employees can't benefit when their company does well.
That's what I contributed.

I'll be waiting to see the financial results and profit sharing for other carriers.

 

[blue collar]

Oh and what a perfect place to trumpet delta's accomplishments. On the forum of a bankrupt airline with 1000s about the be layed off. You sir, have tact.

 

[wings396]

I've been wondering where you've been.

BTW, why isn't your buddy Dougie pushing the merger these days?

I've been just fine thanks. Just realized how futile all of this BS is on here when it comes to day to day real life stuff. It's not worth arguing over most of this stuff with a bunch of people who have nothing to do with any of it anyway.
As far as Parker, its been quiet as suspected since the NDA was signed a few weeks ago. I also noticed that the DL boards were pretty quiet without you peddling all of your propaganda 24/7. I believe that nothing was posted from the 28th until a day or two ago, which goes to show that if you dont post there, nobody else really does either.

 

[wings396]

Oh and what a perfect place to trumpet delta's accomplishments. On the forum of a bankrupt airline with 1000s about the be layed off. You sir, have tact.

That's because nobody else posts or pays much attention to the DL board except him. What better way to spread the word on a more active board where as you said thousands are losing jobs and benefits. Very poor taste indeed.

 

[Kev3188]

I jumped into the conversation...

You were *already* in the conversation.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I’m sorry but there have been legions of people “kicking the other team when they were down as long” as I have participated in aviation chat forums which amounts to about 9 years. You, Wings, were one of the ringleaders kicking DL during its BK, so you of all people, are the least qualified to all of a sudden push for a holier-than-thou standard of posting.

Spectator exists for one reason and one reason only - to counteract the incessant red button pushing that some people on this forum who apparently couldn't handle the truth engaged in.

It should have been apparent to most people that 9/11 was a turning point in the life of the United States, and as with many things, change that has been most pronounced in the airline industry.
For much of the regulated era of the airline industry, airlines were largely alike. Service and price wasn’t that different; profitability didn’t swing wildly from one airline to another since any reasonably managed airline could be profitable.
The rise of low fare carriers began before 9/11 as did the differentiation between various legacy airlines… but 9/11 pushed the trend forward.
We are probably now very close to the final “end state” for the US airline industry. Despite some believing that there will be a continual cycle of bankruptcies, the reality is that the US airline industry will be reduced to a core group of players who will survive and adapt. The process of finding that stability has largely been completed, except for AA.

Review these words from Robert Frost and see that the same sentiment Frost expressed can be said about the airline industry.

The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim
Because it was grassy and wanted wear,
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I marked the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

There have always been companies that do well and those that do not in American industry. The protected nature of the airline industry limited the ability for the “losers” to fall out as well as cap the ability of the “winners” to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack.


But today billion dollar differences in profits and thousands of dollars of profit sharing per employee aren’t opinions any more than the difference in pay scales between employees… these are facts that are black and white which means they are either true or they are false… just as saying whether an airline will add flights or not, just as saying whether a refinery will produce X% of jet fuel or not.
These are B&W issues and that is where I have focused my efforts on aviation chat forums.

It is now becoming very apparent that there are indeed significant differences between airlines and their business plans and strategic smarts and the fruit of those differences is about to become very apparent in the US airline industry.

It would indeed be petty to argue about what company was better and glory in someone else’s tribulations… but that is NOT my focus.
For nine years, I have posted on aviation chat forums because I believed then and still believe now that the vast majority of conversations about the commercial airline industry are focused in the wrong direction. This forum exists primarily for the benefit of people pushing a pro-union, anti-mgmt standpoint based on a belief that is what would provide the best outcome for employees. Yet the evidence is overwhelming after a decade of enormous turbulence in the airline industry that the union-mgmt discussion is the wrong discussion to determine success or failure for airline employees.

Make no mistake… I am fully desirous of seeing everyone win…. Employees, mgmt, and stockholders. Yet too many people have bought into the mindset that employees have to lose if mgmt and stockholders win.

Corporate strategy and how well a company is run makes all the difference in how well airline employees fare and not the union vs mgmt debate or the intra-union conflicts that form the majority of aviation chat forum discussions.

After two rounds of BK and a number of strategic failures post deregulation, CO completely redefined itself, seized opportunities like NYC that no one else in the airline industry bothered to recognize, and treated their employees well. CO was largely unionized at the time and became increasingly unionized until its merger with UA. CO has been one of the airline industry’s greatest turnaround success stories.

For four decades, WN has relentlessly stuck to the business plan that it perfected and which has been copied around the world – providing low cost, affordable air transportation in high density markets by employees who were well-treated and well-compensated. WN has been one of the greatest success stories of GLOBAL aviation.

Among the existing network/legacy carriers, DL has run a consistently better airline over the more than 75 years of the US airline industry and DL has done its job well enough that it has moved from outside the ranks of the “chosen few” in the early days of the airline industry to one of the largest airlines in the world. DL has long been strategically sharp, looking for opportunities and taking risks which others have not even seen, and in the process has grown far more than other carriers including by successfully merging and acquiring other carriers in an industry where mergers have a very high failure rate. DL has also paid its employees better than average than most of its peer carriers and its employees have been fiercely loyal to DL and have largely eschewed unions and the contentious labor-mgmt environment that has typified most of the US airline industry.

The real differentiation between DL and the rest of the industry has come in the past five years as DL moved first to create a global megacarrier, merged with NW very successfully, and continues to cement the advantages gained from that merger with the NYC/DC slot deal, a massive refleeting largely using aircraft acquired at a fraction of the price of its competitors, and now the refinery deal which is set to produce financial results better than even what DL expected six months ago. And more announcements regarding key strategic initiatives are coming in the next few weeks, if not days.

DL came out of BK w/ a plan, has executed brilliantly against it, and has stayed one competitive step ahead of many of its peers….. but let’s be clear – OTHER CARRIERS HAVE HAD THE SAME ABILITY TO RUN A GOOD AIRLINE, including CO for much of the last decade plus and WN for most of its existence.

What has differentiated DL from AA and UA, as well as EA, TW, PA and most other legacy airlines is that DL has adapted and survived AND has largely gotten along with its employees.

The following post was made on a.net (Yes, Kev I read it on occasion just to find gems like this):
“Previous NW employee, current DL employee. Am I 100% happy with everything at work? No, but I'm much happier at DL than I was at NW. I really wish I had the medical plan that I had in 1989, but I bet most of us do. For those things I wish were changed, I work for in a positive manner to affect change. No galley grousing, no harunphs in the aisle.
“I've never worked for a CONSISTENTLY profitable carrier in my career. I rather enjoy it.”

WOW. JUST WOW. Sounds like the MAJORITY of the PMNW employees I have met.

Even though some people here want to reduce the subject to labor-mgmt relations, the VAST majority of airline employees and Americans as a whole just want to work for a company that is succeeding and at least doesn’t fight w/ its employees. They aren’t interested in the contentious labor –mgmt atmosphere that has defined relationships at most US legacy airlines for almost the entire life of US commercial aviation history.

They can figure out that if you make several thousand dollars more in profit sharing that you easily offset the relatively small pay difference that may exist between you and your peers.

They can figure out that their insurance and vacation may not be as good as other airlines but is in line with other American industries.

They can figure out that working for a company that is stable gives YOU the freedom to leave when you have put in enough time and still come out w/ benefits for your service.

They can figure out that a union won’t help them and they thank their lucky stars every night when they hit the pillow and look at the chaos that defines much of the US airline industry.

Wings, the reason you haven’t heard your boss pushing the merger of late is because it is far from clear what kind of revenues AA and US will both have by the time they are able to merge. Other carriers, including DL, continue to MASSIVELY move revenues away from AA and US.

I have every desire for every airline employee to succeed… but the simple reality is that in the competitive world of business, not every company is going to make it and one's personal fortunes ARE tied to the company that writes their paycheck. That is just reality… and the airline industry is littered w/ the carcasses of airlines that haven’t been able to keep up.

I have never believed that union vs. non-union is the true issue…. But rather the question is how well run a company is. There have been an enormous number of airline failures that have been due to management who didn’t understand or adapt to the realities of the marketplace.

I have sounded the clarion call for 9 years regarding what AA needed to do to turn things around - and my focus has RARELY been on AA labor. It still is far more focused on mgmt… and to be completely honest, labor-mgmt relations are almost completely in the hands of mgmt at any company – humans are humans at any company and it is mgmt’s job to create an environment that is conducive to allowing the company and employees to work productively together.

DL has created that type of positive, productive environment but so did CO during the best years that company had and WN largely continues to operate in that mode, even if they are having to make it known they cannot continue to keep increasing pay like they once did.

So, complete with poetry, that is where the US airline industry is right now…. And also why I am not about to stop now that the final round of restructuring in the US airline industry is about to become apparent.

 

[wings396]

Yea, OK there buddy. Some things will never change as evident by another one of your short story posts.
Once again you have attempted to instigate me into another round with you, but it ain't gonna work. I can only assume that you were on suicide watch during Deltas BK, so I will write that comment off to your meds.
You got called out by another board member for gloating about DL on a AA BK thread, and are now attempting to distract from the main fact.

 

[WorldTraveler]

let me rephrase your statement for you
"I'm not going to keep hammering away at this merger because I'm not really sure that it is going to happen after all, and even if it did, whether AA and US could financially make it in the competitive environment we face. (I've said that for quite some time)
My boss is not as convinced as he once was that a full fledged merger could work either and mgmt of my airline has once again raised the "yes, we have options outside of AA" to make sure there is an "out."

This isn't and never has been personal even if you have tried to make it as much in the absence of being able to counter the real points.

If all you got out of my post was that I was gloating over DL, then you missed the point completely.

My point has been from the beginnings of my participation in aviation chat forums, remains so today, and will continue to be that the quality of the mgmt team at an airline and their ability to successfully navigate the continual changes in the industry translates to 99% of the success for employees, particularly when combined with a working environment that is not combative.

DL has maintained that type of environment, but so does WN, and so did CO during the best years for that airline.

It isn't rocket science and it has only mininally to do with the incessant labor-mgmt fighting that defines most of this chat forum and the airline industry as a whole.

If you work for a company with good, visionary, strategically focused mgmt who also treats employees even remotely like humans, you can win in the US airline industry.

And then you take your toys and go home on your terms and then do what you want to do for the rest of your life.

 

[PITbull]

World Traveler,

I agree with your post above, up to the point where you think DL has done so well and stands out among the rest as bringing in massive revenues as compared to US and AA. Well, let's bring this home. DL went into BK, WN has not, CO went into BK, WN has not, DL merged with NW which made them more fierce competitor than stand alone; as did UA and CO. After billions of $$ in concessions from these 4 carriers, and then starting the wave ofconsolidation, they had better be making profits and increasing revenue after all this war. This is not brain surgery to figure if you take out capacity and join forces with your enemy, become allies, your bound to be more viable, and compeititve, specifically in the market. How long this lasts? Well, as you say some companies succeed and some fail.

I too, have been writing on this board for the past decade, and I have predicted way back in 2002, on these very boards, that each will dance into BK protection as a "trump card" used to throw out contracts, humble employees, and make them feel that they need the airline, more than the airline needs them. (Oh yes, they gave us the illusion (delusion) we had a say in how the contracts got restructured, but those in the front seats with these goons knew better and screamed it from the roof tops, not because of the severe concessions that were forced upon the employees, but BECAUSE at the end of the day, there was no balance, and the end result was a wipe-out, and labor financially went off the cliff. I wrote out on these very boards back in 2002, before you started posting on here, about the "domino effect" that would occur in the industry and warned all of labor on all the legacy boards what will happen and that the new paradigm is a "new world order" management calls "consolidation". If you recall, US Airways made an attempt to merge with UA back in the year 2000, BEFORE 9/11. They were denied by the DOT. When US Airways merged from BK in 2005, they merged with Am West, and in 2006, made a huge attempt which failed to buy DL while they were in BK. those employees were smart enough t stay clear of that deal, cause they got to keep their pensions frozen, and NOT terminated. Then there was the failed attempt to try for UA again in 2010. Its not about the consolidation among just the big 7, as it were, but also gobbling out the smaller carriers and knocking them out of the "ball game", too. What the hell, right? Is dog eat dog...

The geatest education for all of us on this forum is that most of us have contributed a plethera of knowledge, wisdom and shared view points from each others perspective during this past decade. Passengers, labor, non-labor, mangement and probably even stock holders have either perused these boards or have posted what they thought and what they predicted; what labor should do, what management should care about, like you said above, after all, we are all human. The statment you wrote above says it all in a simple 'nut shell':

"If you work for a company with good, visionary, strategically focused mgmt who also treats employees even remotely like humans, you can win in the US airline industry." This premise has been the corner stone of the former CEO and founder of WN...hmmm, now that is a success story to rave about...not DL story. The problem with the legacy carriers is that they fully do not visualize the rank and file as "human"; maybe subhuman. Ideally, we would like them to, but its just not that way. Why? Greed run-a-muk. Giving an employee $200 every once in awhile, just calms labor, ad fools the troops into thinking... they are apart of something great...profits!

What I don't agree with is that consolidation is not the "end game". In fact, its just the beginning of a new era in the service of airline transportation.

As you can attest, there are some legacy carriers that are structuring their airplane seats to lose some inches just to fit a few more seats on them, make the ride much more uncomfortable. the idea of paying for a particular seat for a price is around the corner for all carriers as Kirby (President of U) has been touting.

And, then the flying consumer. Yes, that comes next. less capacity, creates less supply, and the demand to fly with an ever increasing world population, will be very expensive.

The public will be next to be nickeled and dimed to tears. Sadly, this will be quite an expensive ride for the next 10 years for them.

Read on: attached is a link after the read. Yea, let's go there...

http://teddyonaviati...ory-of-decline/

 

[Kev3188]

The following post was made on a.net (Yes, Kev I read it on occasion just to find gems like this):
“Previous NW employee, current DL employee. Am I 100% happy with everything at work? No, but I'm much happier at DL than I was at NW. I really wish I had the medical plan that I had in 1989, but I bet most of us do. For those things I wish were changed, I work for in a positive manner to affect change. No galley grousing, no harunphs in the aisle.
“I've never worked for a CONSISTENTLY profitable carrier in my career. I rather enjoy it.”

WOW. JUST WOW. Sounds like the MAJORITY of the PMNW employees I have met.

A pro company post on A.Net? WOW. JUST WOW.


While I'm sure you're anecdotal interactions with gate agents here and there are valid in your mind, here's a quote from that same thread that is much more accurate in my estimation. You know, as someone that still actually works here, and interacts with active employees across the system daily:

"I give merit where it's due. Delta leaders get credit for developing a strategy to make Delta a profitable corporation and even a top tier airline in North America. As far as employee treatment...still have a long way to go."

Maybe you (or one of your alter egos) should've jumped into that thread before it was locked. Oh, wait...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Pit,
Thanks again for your thoughtful responses and yes we both have spent more than a few hours on this board.
I do value the opinions of others and agree that each one has their perspective.

I’ll stop you about halfway through your 2[sup]nd[/sup] paragraph and tell you that your assumption that mgmt took labor to the cleaners and got as much as it can by saying that the majority of DL’s employees were not and still are not unionized and thus there was no negotiating as to what was going to be taken. DL took what it needed… but there are abundant facts to show that DL employees “gave” less in BK than employees at other companies for two big reasons:
1. DL didn’t need to clean out the unions because, unlike the unionized carriers, once DL left BK it would still have the opportunity to restructure labor costs if it needed to….. the unionized carriers didn’t have this option and thus have taken as much as they can get in BK and then kept the costs as low as possible for as long as possible because once they give pay raises, it may take another trip to BK to get them back.
2. But DL has not needed to worry about cutting pay again because they built a strong business turnaround plan that was based on labor paying one-third of the total cost of restructuring via wage and benefit costs while roughly another third came from non-labor costs and one-third came from revenue gains. No other carrier has reduced the “ask’ from employees to the level DL did in BK. The revenue benefits since BK have driven DL’s continued recovery and it is precisely the strategic “smarts” that have allowed them first to go after int’l revenues to places like Africa that no US carrier bothered to fly to for 20 years and then later by growing NYC where DL continues to dramatically shift revenues from AA and US primarily to DL. Anyone who doesn’t appreciate how significant the growth of revenue at DL is right now at the expense of other carriers, stick around another year until market level data is fully available and it will be very clear to see.

It is precisely because DL didn’t need to cut to the bone and they had a solid plan to grow the airline – which included merging with NW – that they didn’t “break” their employees and those same employees then rallied around them when necessary and continue to do so – including deciding unions won’t help the cause. That flexibility alone has given DL enormous advantages - and DL employees are being rewarded w/ profit sharing that far exceeds what any of their network peers are seeing.

You are absolutely right that WN hasn’t gone into BK – but they didn’t have 70 years of legacy costs going into 9/11 when industry revenues dropped by more than 25%. No business can sustain the level of cuts that the airlines faced post 9/11 w/o drastic cuts... exactly what the network carriers did.
WN spent much of its first 30 years – before it even had retirees w/ full length of service – avoiding the most competitive markets. What WN was for the first 30 years is not at all predictive of where they will be for the next 30 years. WN has a lot of inertia that will carry them far but they are not going to be the darling of the industry like they were for the first 30 years if for no other reason than that they are now DIRECTLY competing w/ other carriers who are much more nimble in markets where WN is not the only dominant carrier.
WN has treated its employees well but they could afford to because they didn’t face the competitive environment that network carriers faced.

CO also treated its employees well and had them well-engaged in rebuilding CO… but let’s not forget that CO wiped out many, many costs in its two BKs that they didn’t begin to regain until they merged w/ UA. CO’s average labor costs were well below other carriers even though they had higher top of scale rates.

CO like WN kept growing which kept average costs down as new hires came into the system at the bottom.

DL, OTOH, has focused much more on growing revenue at other carriers’ expense and at using labor flexibility – ready reserves, part-time and temp employees to adapt to the changing demands of the business w/o being over budget.
DL’s employees ARE doing better than other network carriers and that will become even more apparent by the end of January when every carrier has released their 2012 financials which will include hefty profit-sharing.

Thus, the bottom line assumption that employees have nothing more to give is obviously not accurate for all employees, such as those at DL, that have seen several pay raises since exiting BK – and who will see further raises at the beginning of 2013.

Your assumptions that the public will continue to face degraded service and exorbitant prices are not accurate. Air fares still cost less than they did in 1978…. Even though prices have risen a lot, the cost of fuel has taken most of those increases. Airline employees ARE NOT currently bearing the cost of increased fuel since most airlines, US included, are doing a better job of passing along fuel cost increases to consumers than has happened at any time since deregulation.

Capacity is falling and prices are going up… but airlines are still not obtaining profits at levels anywhere close to what other industries offer. When airline profits are abusive, then you might have room to argue your point, but by that point, a new startup or two will have entered the market and driven fares down again.

Airlines ARE unbundling fares… but the DOT and analysts can figure out what the true price is that consumers pay. Unbundling airfares is no different from what your cell phone or cable provider does. I’m not sure why people find it so evil that airlines allow consumers to buy only what matters to them. Other airlines in other parts of the world have long unbundled fares far more than US airlines with the exception of Spirit and Allegiant do… and those carriers in other parts of the world are far larger as a percentage of the total travel market than Spirit and Allegiant are.

Adapting to the marketplace is exactly what US airlines need to do… those that have figured out how to unbundle fares and find new revenues are winning – and aren’t having to come back to their employees for more cuts.
But there is no denying that the majority of legacy carriers continue to hold their employees in the clutches of their BK contracts because they are absolutely afraid that if they increase pay, they will FOREVER have to live w/ those costs or go through BK again.

DL employees have enjoyed higher pay because their employer continues to find major sources of new revenue, makes a priority of protecting DL employee jobs before their contract partners (see the shift in flying from regional carriers to mainline which DL is leading), and are willing to use profits as a motivation for employees to keep supporting the company’s efforts.
WN uses that same model – but most of the network carriers still don’t – and that is why your assessment of labor’s position is accurate as long as you put a big asterisk next to DL.

Kevin,
I read that post too... yet that person couldn't really defend his statement in the eyes of many of his own peers and that person was threatened w/ being removed from the forum for his continued hijack of topics.

A.net and forums will continue to have disgruntled employees who continue to whine and can't figure out how to adapt and win in the current environment, regardless of the airline.
It is obvious, once again, that the opinions of that person are not reflective of the majority of DL employees - or if they are true, that the notion that unions could fix the problem is not supported by the majority of employees in EVERY major workgroup that voted on unionization.
Passing out hundreds of millions of dollars in profit-sharing while other carriers are doing little to none will only further the belief that DL has a solid, profitable approach to running its business and working with its employees that DL employees are not going to vote to leave.
If I am found to be wrong, I want you to be the first to let me know differently. You have all the means to get the message through.

 

[FA Mikey]

Simply Delta was a leader in one thing. Screwing the hard working people out of what the company agreed to. They were first up to use the federal Bankruptcy code to screw the people and the creditors to bring $$ back to delta hdq.

Now matter how you choose to tell it, spin it or what ever you do, it comes back to the same principal. Delta failed and used the government to bring cost down, which in turn brought the other airlines right behind to do the same.

Delta has always been a been a follower, not a leader. (except see previous two paragraphs) They have grown through large acquisitions. Both domestically and internationally. Pan Am, western etc. Its the same post after post. delta, delta delta. Good God man let it go. At least save it for the delta board. Last I checked this was about AA/us and yet its line after line about delta.

 

[Kev3188]

Kevin,
I read that post too... yet that person couldn't really defend his statement in the eyes of many of his own peers and that person was threatened w/ being removed from the forum for his continued hijack of topics.

I think he/she holds their own just fine. That's irrelevant, though; what I specifically quoted from them is absolutely dead on. DL will ignore that growing mindset at it's own peril.

Threatened with removal? That sounds familiar...

Carry on...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
Glad you weighed in once again because you confirm exactly what I have been saying throughout this post.
I believe it has been almost 4 years since the DL/NW merger officially closed and a whole lot more years before that a merger between DL and NW was predicted. There were people way back then who predicted the merger wouldn’t work and that DL couldn’t figure out how to manage the assets it acquired, and you continue to perpetuate the same idea four years later, with your belief that DL doesn’t know how to manage its employees.

You do realize that the final NMB rulings are also coming up on one year for some groups and all are more than nine months old? Despite your predictions, there continue to be PMNW employees who consistently say that they are as happy working for DL as they have been working for any airline.

We can argue about the anecdotal evidence you and I both manage to hear/gather but there is no argument about the results of the unionization votes… which incidentally all took place years ago with the appeals process chewing up years and years.
Either you really can’t see the evidence in front of you – perhaps because of your bias – or you refuse to do so, because if you had to admit that the DL model of employee relations works, it would also require that you admit that the model you supported for years and years is dead and won’t ever be revived - something that, as much as I would like to believe otherwise, probably has "no chance" of happening... but I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.

You can decide which is true but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear that DL has figured out how to run a solid, viable business, remain ahead of its competitors, and keep its people happy – three things that rarely have happened in the airline industry with much consistency, esp. in the legacy carrier segment.

Your undying commitment to the traditional labor-mgmt model of the legacy US airlines is commendable for its tenacity – it just happens to be devoid of reality and has "no chance" of actually coming to past at DL.

The evidence is overwhelming that DL employees fared far better in BK than their peers at other network carriers and DL employees have enjoyed far better post-BK financial success than their peers, many of whom are still working under BK court imposed contracts even though their companies have been out of BK far longer than DL.

Mikey, it is precisely to counter the point that has been espoused here that the legacy carrier model is broken and that their employees can never succeed post BK that I continue to post.

You do realize that CO's TWO bankruptcies and UA and US all preceded DL's, don't you?

You do realize that DL's employees had less cuts and have recovered more since BK than any other legacy airline group, don't you?

CO managed to restructure successfully after 2 BKs and had more than a decade of success, including peace with its employees who supported their efforts. But CO’s labor costs were far lower than the network carriers.

DL’s labor costs are on par with its network peers and continue to grow, meaning that there is indeed a true legacy carrier that can manage to pay salaries on par/better than its legacy peers and generate revenue premiums to the industry… exactly the type of model that WN used for 30 years to build a major national presence.

As AA’s future hangs in the balance, all of us want to see AA employees succeed and emerge from this toxic environment in which they find themselves. Yet, non-aviation websites are full of posts by passengers saying that they are walking away from AA and they have no intention of returning. AA has accumulated a huge customer following over the decades but if these stories represent even 5% of AA’s highest value passengers, AA cannot recover from its tailspin and US cannot possibly make a merger with AA work.
I have posted for years that AA mgmt – not employees – needed to focus on running the business and defend and build its franchise instead of fighting with the employees, while at least some labor leaders have thought they could engage the company in battle and win.
The only winners in AA’s ongoing operational problems are likely to be AA’s competitors who can and are running reliable operations with employees that do a decent job of carrying for their customers. Not surprisingly, AA’s biggest customer losses are coming in its “northern tier” which is also the most competitive part of AA’s network and the part where AA has had the hardest time competing up this point.
It is very hard to know where this will all end up… but already, it is clear that AA’s problems are only helping AA’s competitors, many of whom do not “practice” the same contentious labor-mgmt model that AA and most other network carriers have used for years.

Kev might not have figured it out yet or may not want to admit it – and neither does the AA mAAnAAgement fan club that has infiltrated this board, but the evidence is overwhelming that the traditional legacy carrier labor-mgmt model does not work and continues to harm employees far more than it helps them.

When people like Kev and Pitbull and Quag and others, including you, Mikey, admit that the traditional labor-mgmt model does not work and that there are other companies that practice other models that do work, then perhaps I’ll retire from my role in aviation chat forums.

 

[Kev3188]

Come down off the cross already...

The 1000's of signed A cards across multiple workgroups- to say nothing of actual experience- tells me that no matter how sunny of picture you want to paint, DL has a long way to go. And again, I'll reiterate: it's NOT an economic issue.

Believe it, or don't. Your choice.

That's about as far down this rabbit hole as I'm gonna go; I've already given you enough oxygen as it is.

Carry on.