Another merger committee's breakdown of the case.

[AWA320]

Oh for gosh sakes. I've never seen such a huge file posted to make a point. OK, we GET it. You can't decertify a union...bad choice of words, but there is a way to get rid of one or change to another union. I can promise you that such a movement is under foot and I would have never dreamed just a few days ago that such a movement would have so much momentum.

Good luck to us all. This is going to be interesting.

A320 Driver :huh:

Have you given any thought at all how much a new union would cost our pilots?? The amount being spent on campaigns, attys, staff and not just in herndon either the staff you have in the mec offices as well. Big dollars is what...

I agree with you in good luck however it's not going to be interesting at all but rather you guys are going to embarrass the profession.

 

[A320 Driver]

Have you given any thought at all how much a new union would cost our pilots?? The amount being spent on campaigns, attys, staff and not just in herndon either the staff you have in the mec offices as well. Big dollars is what...

I agree with you in good luck however it's not going to be interesting at all but rather you guys are going to embarrass the profession.

I have raised many questions over the last few days and no one, and I mean NO ONE cares how much it costs. This whole thing is the product of nearly two decades of abuse at the hands of inept management. To most I've spoken with, it's just the last straw, that's it, nothing to lose. Lost wages, lost retirement, lost benefits and almost constant contract abuse have brought this group to a point I've never witnessed. You West guys didn't bring this on, but unfortunantly, you will now bear the brunt of it.

Trust me, embarrassement is the LAST thing on anyone's mind over here.

A320 Driver :unsure:

 

[N924PS]

I have raised many questions over the last few days and no one, and I mean NO ONE cares how much it costs. This whole thing is the product of nearly two decades of abuse at the hands of inept management. To most I've spoken with, it's just the last straw, that's it, nothing to lose. Lost wages, lost retirement, lost benefits and almost constant contract abuse have brought this group to a point I've never witnessed. You West guys didn't bring this on, but unfortunantly, you will now bear the brunt of it.

Trust me, embarrassement is the LAST thing on anyone's mind over here.

A320 Driver :unsure:

Don't blame it completely on inept management.

I would say inept leadership at USAirways ALPA has just as much to do with the current state of affairs. And I'm not just speaking of the group that brought you LOA 93 (ratified by a 57% vote).

Combine that with an ALPA National that would have been delighted to see USAirways sink into the abyss during Bankuptcy I or II and I think you'll see why this latest crisis exists.

Seperate the Labor Union part of ALPA and you will find no better aviation organization that has made significant contributions to air safety, accident investigation, aeromedical, and aircraft certification.

One could say the Airline Pilot profession is where it is today because of ALPA. And that statement could be viewed either way.

Many pilots at USAirways will not wish to see ALPA decertified for these professional reasons.

 

[A320 Driver]

Many pilots at USAirways will not wish to see ALPA decertified for these professional reasons.

Oh heck, don't say the "d" word or you'll have 700 climbing all over us again.

A320 Driver

 

[BoeingBoy]

I have raised many questions over the last few days and no one, and I mean NO ONE cares how much it costs. This whole thing is the product of nearly two decades of abuse at the hands of inept management. To most I've spoken with, it's just the last straw, that's it, nothing to lose. Lost wages, lost retirement, lost benefits and almost constant contract abuse have brought this group to a point I've never witnessed. You West guys didn't bring this on, but unfortunantly, you will now bear the brunt of it.

A320 Driver,

My hat's off to you - that's one of the most honest statements I've seen about this issue since it erupted two weeks ago.

Unfortunately, and this isn't directed at you personally, all of this erupted because the majority of the East pilots expected the West pilots to bear the brunt of all East's past troubles. That is the only explanation for the insistence on an integration based on longevity. A demand which, if granted, would have put those among the most senior West pilots (757 captains) behind some of East's most junior pilots (furloughees). A demand which, if granted, would have allowed East pilots to capture all the benefits of both East and West attrition for years, if not decades, to come.

Ironic, now that East plots didn't get the benefit of all attrition they complain about having to share the attrition of both sides among the pilots of both sides.

Jim

 

[Bob Loblaw]

I just dont' know what to say! It is interesting in that the easties are so quick to disregard the process in which they put so much faith. It is interesting that they are so quick to ditch the American principles of democracy that have served them well in the past. It is interesting that they are so willing to dump all that they hold dear for themselves, their families, their children, their church, their country.

This is democracy at work. This is American jurisprudence at work. And now we are asked to buy into the notion that the core faiths we hold are now somehow bastardized and minimalized.

I've said it before. I hold no grudge against any AAA pilot. But the AAA pilots have been fortunate over the years in that they have faced weak managements capable of being intimitated without having to work at it. That is no longer the case. All of us are going to have to fight for what we really believe in and I see not much evidence of faith in oneself here or one's fellow pilot. I see a free-for-all for insanity.

The fight isn't easy now and people are frickin' freaking out! AAA pilots have never really had a hard fight. Most of their victories came easily because of inept and weak management something I think typical of an east coast mentality. AWA pilots have always had to fight but sometimes they weren't willing to. Management on this side of the airline theatre are much more willing to take it to the mat than Stephen Wolf or Gangwal and whoever else "ran" that company ever thought about doing.

Guys - you have a real fight on your hands now. A real one. A true John Wayne one. AlPA isn't going to touch the arbitration award. They know they can't and they know they would get killed if they did so. The AAA bus brigade, while noble and fun to watch, is just that; a charade. You guys don't have a clue yet to what or whom your battle is with. Hint: it ain't ALPA and it ain't the westies. Please. Get a clue. This is not that complicated, not that emotional, not that deep, not that groundbreaking and not much of an event in the whole scheme of things.

Bob

 

[PITbull]

A320 Driver,

My hat's off to you - that's one of the most honest statements I've seen about this issue since it erupted two weeks ago.

Unfortunately, and this isn't directed at you personally, all of this erupted because the majority of the East pilots expected the West pilots to bear the brunt of all East's past troubles. That is the only explanation for the insistence on an integration based on longevity. A demand which, if granted, would have put those among the most senior West pilots (757 captains) behind some of East's most junior pilots (furloughees). A demand which, if granted, would have allowed East pilots to capture all the benefits of both East and West attrition for years, if not decades, to come.

Ironic, now that East plots didn't get the benefit of all attrition they complain about having to share the attrition of both sides among the pilots of both sides.

Jim

Well, this is what happens when some bright-eyed group of execs gather up some investors to merge a regional with a legacy. Being an ex-east employee, I don't think it ill- minded or ill-hearted of the East to not want to give up their seniority longevity in order to(once again) help the company and its execs along with investors make even more millions by hurrying a completed merger. If the East pilot group specifically didn't give up $1 billion plus their pensions, I think the seniority integration would not be the straw to break the camel's back.

You can only kick that dog so long...before it takes a huge chunk out of your ass...and anyone close by.

 

[PITbull]

Guys - you have a real fight on your hands now. A real one. A true John Wayne one. AlPA isn't going to touch the arbitration award. They know they can't and they know they would get killed if they did so. The AAA bus brigade, while noble and fun to watch, is just that; a charade. You guys don't have a clue yet to what or whom your battle is with. Hint: it ain't ALPA and it ain't the westies. Please. Get a clue. This is not that complicated, not that emotional, not that deep, not that groundbreaking and not much of an event in the whole scheme of things.

Bob

I beg to differ with you on that. This is a damn HUGE issue for the East. AWA just happened to be targeted to merge with a legacy where the employees were beaten up bad for 4 years...not knowing whether anyone whould keep a job or not, downsizing, hub closings, a/c sent back to the lessors, pension plans dumped and wages reduced anywhere from 31% to 60% (not counting the huge increase to paying for all benefits) . While AWA was hiring because of huge turnover, U was furloughing to the tune of tens of thousands over those 4 years. While the entire industry lost 100,000 jobs post 9/11; 26,000 of them came from one airline...USAirways. Morale is bad on the East, and its too bad that AWA employees maybe effected. Keep in mind, that the AWA management did not provide a profit sharing for the West...that too, came from the East employees to share with the West.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You can only kick that dog so long...before it takes a huge chunk out of your ass.

Except that it wasn't the West pilots that were "kicking that dog". But it was just the West pilots that were being asked (told?) to give up a "chunk out of your ass."

Pilot's are a unique group among unionized airline employees (unique - not special!!). They are the only group for which one's position on the seniority list determines all facets of their work life regardless of longevity. A senior West pilot has all the advantages of being at the top of the list just as much as a senior East pilot (except aircraft differences) regardless of longevity differences between them.

So asking (telling) a West pilot his being near the top of the West seniority list shouldn't give him the advantages of seniority because he really belongs near the bottom of the combined list is telling him to give up a "huge chunk out of [his] ass". A "chunk" that he might not regrow in the remainder of his career.

And you expect the West pilot to just say "Take two chunks while you're at it."

Jim

 

[PITbull]

So asking (telling) a West pilot his being near the top of the West seniority list doesn't matter because he really belongs near the bottom of the combined list is telling him to give up a "huge chunk out of [his] ass". A "chunk" that he might not regrow in the remainder of his career.

And you expect the West pilot to just say "Take two chunks while you're at it."

Jim

Thus far, I don't believe any bites have been taken by the West from the East. But, there has been way too much taken from the East...you know that. Just because the AWA pilot group did not inflict any of the horrific emotional and economic stress on the East, doesn't mean the East now needs to be amenable to all aspects of making this merger work, give up even more to satisfy the inequities that the West may experience as a consequence (which the east has experienced for nearly one half a decade). I was one employee from the East that was not thrilled one damn bit when the merger was announced in May 2005 with a 20 year regional, no less. No, not one bit.

With regard to the award...if implemented, many of those east pilots too, will never have the years left to regain even a small portion of what he/she lost during those bk years. I think the average pilot on the East is maybe age 52?

I believe its worth the East to argue and attempt to negotiate by using all the leverage they have. I do agree with some posters, ALPA really can't get involved in this and take even a perceived partial approach. The east have to singularly find some leverage and use it to balance this out at the table. Otherwise, everyone in the long run loses .

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just because the AWA pilot group did not inflict any of the horrific emotional and economic stress on the East, doesn't mean the East now needs to be amenable to all aspects of this merger, give up even more to satisfy the inequities that the West may experince (which the east has experienced for nearly one half a decade).

Don't take the rhetoric as fact, PITbull. If you can show me something the East pilots give up in the award, I'd be thrilled to see it.

With regard to the award...if implemented, many of those east pilots too, will never have the years left to regain even a small portion of what he/she lost during those bk years.

Are you saying that the West pilots should now incur loses so that East pilots can recapture what they lost in those BK years? I would have expected you to favor a unified attempt to better all the members lot in life rather than taking from one part of the group so as to give to the other part.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

Jack;
Actually, the East pilots made a point of this during the hearings. AWA Merger committee members then called on a couple of financial "experts" that made testimont to de-bunk Parker's claim.

These and other testimonies were used to forge the merged pilot list.

Regards.

 

[PITbull]

Are you saying that the West pilots should now incur loses so that East pilots can recapture what they lost in those BK years? I would have expected you to favor a unified attempt to better all the members lot in life rather than taking from one part of the group so as to give to the other part.

Jim

Jim,

I'm not the "noble" one, my friend. That's your title. B)

The east has already commenced with taking from themselves to share with the other...ex. "profit sharing"...East provisons.

I'm all for unifying folks. This merger of groups happens to be one hell of a challenge being that most share the same unions, with one airline inherently more populated with more senior employees than the other. In the case of AWA labor, their leadership had not negotiated decent contracts, or fought to improve their wages and working conditions in the past as evidenced by their current contracts being in the catagory, in wages and benefits, more at the bottom of the heep. Their turnover is quite high in certain groups.

On the flip side, the East contracts, pre-bk and coming from primarily the same national unions, have negotiated in the past lucrative agreements that created low turnover and an dedicated/loyal workforce that is inherent of having good negotiated contracts that sets the "bar" higher for the industry...

IMO, the West union leadership, along with their members have negotiated poorly and kept their expectation low and the "bar" low. I see it as the West labor now wanting to capitilize and take a 'win-fall' if you will, on the decades of long negotiatons by the East unions to secure good livable agreements by which the members of the East bought and paid for.

As with East f/a contract, even with all the concessions $246 million, there are still many provisons of the East contract that is so much better than the West. And they know it.

Unfortuantely, becaue the scales are not even, the company will force one group to give to the other...I see it that once again, the East will be giving to the west, just to get them to "par" with the current east contracts...as bad as they are.

 

[BoeingBoy]

IMO, the West union leadership, along with their members have kept their expectation low and the "bar" low. I see it as the West labor now wanting to captilize and take a 'win-fall' if you will, on the decades of long negotiatons by the East unions to secure good livable agreements by which the members of the East bought and paid for.

IMO, you're judging the West by the standard of an airline that was in business for over 60 years. Let's look at the timeline:

HP started in 1983 - how did their contracts compare to other 80's startups?

HP's BK in 1993('92?) - Yes, we all know how easy it is to get big increases in pay/benefits when the company is in BK don't we.

Post 9-11-2001 - Yes, an excellent period to be negotiating increases in pay/benefits. I remember that big raise I got.

In short, HP employees haven't had much opportunity to negotiate major increases in their initial contracts. Expecting them to achieve in a little over 20 years, with the background of the above factors, what US employees did in over 30 years of a regulated environment and another 23 years before 911, may be a "little" on the optimistic side. Just look at the last big raises US pilots got - negotiated by UA and DL pilots.

As with East f/a contract, even with all the concessions $246 million, there are still many provisons of the East contract that is so much better than the West.

Just because it's true for the F/A's, don't assume it's true for the pilots because it's not. Aside from the A330 pay rate and profit sharing, which the West doesn't have in their contract, there's almost nothing that's better in the East pilot's contract.

Unfortuantely, becaue the scales are not even, the company will force one group to give to the other.

Which, when you get right down to it, is the company's job - keep employee costs as low as possible. Should it be the employee's job too?

Jim

 

[PITbull]

IMO, you're judging the West by the standard of an airline that was in business for over 60 years. Let's look at the timeline:

That's the point. There is such a desparity in the year difference that it becomes almost insurmoutable to create some kind of "unification" and integration with such a huge gap in the seniority without grossly impacting one group or the other. That's why DOH should be the only way to proceed. AFA has in their merger bylaws that it will be DOH. And that was the end of that noise just as quicly as it started.

With regard to not having enough time for AWA to negoitate decent contracts because of the historical events within certain timelines...you just can't use that as THE excuse. C'mon Jim. SW maybe 8 years older than AWA. Its not JetBlue. Let's just take the catagory of "regional" airline in their catagory, they are still more towards the bottom vs the middle. Heck, their wages were so low, that the ATSB told their management that the f/as didn't have to give any concessions to qualify for the ATSB in 2001. They were the first airline to secure $500 million.

Did you know that?

I think that's why Jerry targeted U's wages to match AWA, after all, he was familiar and was involved in their negotiated their contracts in the 90s. He used their contract as the "set bar" for our BK negotiations.