April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[nevergiveup]

You are down to arguing spelling? But if you want to throw stones.

Do courts here/hear?

First you have to understand that the DJ appeal is the companies case not usapa. So it would be the company that asks for an expedited hearing not usapa. Besides usapa said they won. Why would they want anything changed if you won?

But that is over the ninth agreed with the west not to expedite. Get over it. The appeal is not going to decide this question.

The case in AZ will. Yet it is once again usapa dragging it's feet. Have you read what the company said about more delay?



The company wants this done, the west wants this done. Why does usapa not want this case done? Why not ask the AZ court to expedite? Or at least make the lawful deadlines for filings. Incompetence from usapa may remove the ripeness question all together.

That would be justice.

Only the farmers.......I mean lawyers win.

 

[Pi brat]

I don't see the delay the west points to. USAPA thought we had things settled until the west sued again. Before suing, they sent letters to everyone threatening to do "whatever was necessary" to get the Nic. That led to the NY filing. These things take time, so USAPA asked for an extension on the filing. But they agree with AOL that it should be sent to Judge Silver. What the problem?

I think this sums things up nicely:

Aside from the fact that the case before Judge Wake
was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction,
given the numerous changes in factual circumstances since that time,
the proceedings before Judge Wake in Addington I
are no longer relevant. Not only is the economic landscape today significantly different than it was during
Addington I, no merger between US Airways and American Airlines was
contemplated. Further, while USAPA continues to believe Plaintiffs’ latest
claims are not ripe because there is still no collective bargaining agreement integrating
pilot seniority, even assuming they were,such claims must be evaluated in light of
the current factual landscape confronting the parties.
Appeals is particularly flawed because it fails to take into account the importance of
evaluating the rationality of a union's decision in light of both the facts and the legal
climate that confronted the negotiators at the time the decision was made.” Chief Judge
Silver has the most familiarity with the issues and current facts involved in this case.
CONCLUSION
For the foregoing reasons, USAPA requests that this case be transferred to Chief
Judge Silver, and plaintiffs’ motion to transfer to Judge Wake be denied.

 

[cleardirect]

Again, you never answered my questions. Why so hard?

I can not help if you can not understand clear language.

Expediting in the ninth would not have done a thing to advance the question. Besides usapa said you won. Why expedite an appeal for a case you won. The ninth decided, they agreed with the west and decided against the east. It's over.

Now why is usapa not expediting the case that will answer the question?

 

[Phoenix]

I don't see the delay the west points to. USAPA thought we had things settled until the west sued again. Before suing, they sent letters to everyone threatening to do "whatever was necessary" to get the Nic. That led to the NY filing. These things take time, so USAPA asked for an extension on the filing. But they agree with AOL that it should be sent to Judge Silver. What the problem?

I think this sums things up nicely:

Aside from the fact that the case before Judge Wake
was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction,
given the numerous changes in factual circumstances since that time,
the proceedings before Judge Wake in Addington I
are no longer relevant. Not only is the economic landscape today significantly different than it was during
Addington I, no merger between US Airways and American Airlines was
contemplated. Further, while USAPA continues to believe Plaintiffs’ latest
claims are not ripe because there is still no collective bargaining agreement integrating
pilot seniority, even assuming they were,such claims must be evaluated in light of
the current factual landscape confronting the parties.
Appeals is particularly flawed because it fails to take into account the importance of
evaluating the rationality of a union's decision in light of both the facts and the legal
climate that confronted the negotiators at the time the decision was made.” Chief Judge
Silver has the most familiarity with the issues and current facts involved in this case.
CONCLUSION
For the foregoing reasons, USAPA requests that this case be transferred to Chief
Judge Silver, and plaintiffs’ motion to transfer to Judge Wake be denied.

Yeah but Wake is on my golfing buddy list. Silver won't even let me caddy for her.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't see the delay the west points to. USAPA thought we had things settled until the west sued again. Before suing, they sent letters to everyone threatening to do "whatever was necessary" to get the Nic. That led to the NY filing. These things take time, so USAPA asked for an extension on the filing. But they agree with AOL that it should be sent to Judge Silver. What the problem?

I think this sums things up nicely:

Aside from the fact that the case before Judge Wake
was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction,
given the numerous changes in factual circumstances since that time,
the proceedings before Judge Wake in Addington I
are no longer relevant. Not only is the economic landscape today significantly different than it was during
Addington I, no merger between US Airways and American Airlines was
contemplated. Further, while USAPA continues to believe Plaintiffs’ latest
claims are not ripe because there is still no collective bargaining agreement integrating
pilot seniority, even assuming they were,such claims must be evaluated in light of
the current factual landscape confronting the parties.
Appeals is particularly flawed because it fails to take into account the importance of
evaluating the rationality of a union's decision in light of both the facts and the legal
climate that confronted the negotiators at the time the decision was made.” Chief Judge
Silver has the most familiarity with the issues and current facts involved in this case.
CONCLUSION
For the foregoing reasons, USAPA requests that this case be transferred to Chief
Judge Silver, and plaintiffs’ motion to transfer to Judge Wake be denied.

usapa "thought" you had it settled? Seriously you can't be that stupid.

Check the facts. It was usapa that sued first. The wrong party but none the less usapa fired the first shot. Why so shocked when we defend ourselves?

You say the west sent letters to "everyone." We sent three letters to the parties involved. usapa sent litigation notices to 35 parties that have nothing to do with our case. Talk about shotgun approach. Plus it is not the west fault your lawyers have a reading problem. The second letter Marty sent explained but Shamanski ignored it or was to ignorant to understand. Judge Lane expalined it to usapa.

The judge got it. He stated clearly that the if the west was going to try and stop the merger we would have had to appear the prior week.

A letter is not a legal action no matter how tortured usapa wants to read into the letter.

THE COURT: All right. Before I hear from the
22 other folks on the phone who wish to be heard let me share
23 my take on this.
24 Parties could spend a lot of time and money filing
25 various motions in this court that I don't know will really


1 advance the ball. There'll be a fight about forum and
2 procedures rather than delving into the underlying merits.
3 There was no one who appeared on behalf of the
4 these parties on the merger motion and the merger hearing
5 that we had last week, so it would seem that to the extent
6 that someone wanted to object to that I'm sure they were
7 aware of it, it was very hard to not be aware that that
8 motion was going to be heard, that that ship has sailed.
9 So I will take at face value the statement that no
10 one has an interest in interfering with the merger, because
11 I suspect if they did they would have been here to announce
12 their presence with authority.

The first thing the judge recognized was that usapa was trying to waste a bunch of time and money avoiding the underlying merits.

So if the west had wanted to stop the merger the judge sees we would have been in his court the week before. Except it was usapa in his court trying to delay getting to the merits of our seniority case.

Just how many lawyer does it take usapa to do the job? There are 6 lawyer listed for the NY case. Six lawyers listed for the AZ case. Only two overlap. usapa has 10 lawyers working and they could not manage to make any of the deadlines for AZ. It has been almost a week since usapa got the a$$ handed to them and kicked out of court. Yet still no response to AZ.

Did you miss the part where usapa violated the federal court rules and did not file on time? Is usapa so arrogant that you think rules don't apply? It would be sweet justice if the court ruled in our favor because usapa failed to follow the rules. Just like you have failed for the last for 5 years.

 

[Pi brat]

I can not help if you can not understand clear language.

Expediting in the ninth would not have done a thing to advance the question. Besides usapa said you won. Why expedite an appeal for a case you won. The ninth decided, they agreed with the west and decided against the east. It's over.

Now why is usapa not expediting the case that will answer the question?

Right, I wasn't clear. Geez.

Let's try again.

USAPA has been busy trying to keep you guys from screwing up the merger. The original letters from you attorneys said that you would "DO WHATEVER IT TAKES....." It takes time to do things like the NY case. They asked for a little more time, that's it. You guys have been delaying this since 2008.

So again, I will ask. What damage would expediting the appeal do? Why not just stay silent on it? Do you think you will be granted a default judgement? What is YOUR expected timeline for the current DJ.

On ripeness. The TA says this about a joint agreement:

"V. Negotiation of a Collective Bargaining Agreement
The Association and the Airline Parties will negotiate a single collective bargaining
agreement applicable to the merged operations of America West and US Airways (the
“Single Agreement&rdquo😉 as follows:"

See any problems there with ripeness? I took you guys word that we had a JCBA and called the other day for crew meals and was denied. The MOU actually lays out how we won't have a joint agreement between us and calls for continued separate ops. You may win that agrument, just as Pat said in his filing, but the merits still have to be heard, right?

 

[Pi brat]

Seriously you can't be that stupid.

You calling me stupid. Now that's funny. Thanks clear, I need that.

 

[Res Judicata]

The language in the MOU will take care of this!

It. Absolutely. Will. Not. Please show me where in the MOU East/west seniority integration is referred to. Just because the company says they're "neutral" (b.s. btw) doesn't mean ANYBODY else is. Like the UCC, the APA and the BK court. You guys really stepped in it voting for this MOU. Should have got better lawyers. Being the vast percentage of the MOU benefits are going into your unworthy pockets , you should be thankful to be eating the Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

BTW, everyone understands that the massive delay that clear is worried about is only until May 6th. The current DJ has being going on for nearly 2 years with no end in sight and his panties are in a wad over a month.

 

[Pi brat]

It. Absolutely. Will. Not. Please show me where in the MOU East/west seniority integration is referred to. Just because the company says they're "neutral" (b.s. btw) doesn't mean ANYBODY else is. Like the UCC, the APA and the BK court. You guys really stepped in it voting for this MOU. Should have got better lawyers. Being the vast percentage of the MOU benefits are going into your unworthy pockets , you should be thankful to be eating the Nic.

Where it says that all current contracts are in force until POR, then they all go away and the lists will only change under section 10 of the MOU.

 

[Bill Brasky]

, you should be thankful to be eating the Nic.

We didn't eat the Nic, we crapped it. It's gone. Flushed forever. Don't believe me, just wait and see....

 

[snapthis]

We didn't eat the Nic, we crapped it. It's gone. Flushed forever. Don't believe me, just wait and see....

We'll be sure to add that to other famous Bill Brasky quotes:

Bill Brasky Quotes

• He's a ten-foot tall beast man, who showers in vodka, and feeds his baby shrimp scampi.
  
• He orchestrated the merger between UNICEF and Smith and Wesson.
  
• Brasky went public with his own buttocks and made seven million.
  
• Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky went hunting? Well anyway, Brasky decides he's gonna hunt down all four members of the Banana Splits. He stalks and kills every one of them with a machete. They all beg for their lives, except Fleagul.
  
• We once had a bachelor party for Brasky. He ate the entire cake, before we could tell him there was a stripper in it.
  
• Brasky once hosted the Grammy's and gave every award to Cory Hardt.
  
• He has a toenail on the end of his penis.
  
• Brasky got his wife pregnant, and she gave birth to a delicious sixteen ounce steak. The afterbirth was sautéed mushrooms.
  
• Brasky's family crest is a picture of a barracuda, eating Neil Armstrong.
  
• Brasky's ranked eighteenth in the AP College Football Poll.
  
• Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky was in a production of The King and I? Well anyway, before the show, Brasky chloroforms the entire cast, and slowly eats them in front of the audience for two hours. The production got pretty good reviews.
  
• He breast feeds John Madden.
  
• Brasky named the group ShaNaNa. They did not want to be called that.
  
• If you drop a phonograph needle on Brasky's nipple, it plays the Beach Boys Pet Sounds.
  
• They use Brasky's foreskin as a tarp when it rains at Yankee Stadium.
  
• Brasky directed that commercial where the women play basketball in high heels.
  
• He wears a live rattlesnake as a condom.
  
• All the Yes album covers are Brasky family photos.
  
• Darryl Dawkins has a summer home in Brasky's groin.
  
• Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky taught his son how to drive? Well anyway, Brasky taught his son how to drive by entering him into the Indy 500. The kid wrecked and died. Brasky said, It would have happened sometime.
  
• Brasky's semen can form into a liquid human. Like that guy from Terminator 2.
  
• Brasky still believes in Santa Claus, and he wants to put him in porno films.
  
• He thinks the Iron Man is gay.
  
• He framed Roger Rabbit.
  
• Brasky used to ride upon a steed, perchance to spy a lady.
  
• The character of Johnny Appleseed was based on Brasky, except for the part about planting apple trees and not raping men.
  
• He gave a handjob to a manta ray.
  
• He cornered the market on booze.
  
• Did I ever tell you about the time Bill Brasky forced me to wear a woman's bikini? Well anyway, Brasky tears off my clothes and forces me to wear this skimpy bikini. For the next three months I had to conduct my business wearing only a woman's bathing suit. I would cry from shame and question my manhood daily, but Ill be damned if at the end of the quarter my sales hadn't tripled.
  
• Hell eat a homeless person if you dare him.
  
• One time I asked Brasky to dress up as Santa for a Christmas party I was having for my children. Anyway, Brasky shows up as Santa, says I've got goodies for you kids. He reaches into his bag and proceeds to hand out scrap metal and cigarettes to them. Then he takes off his beard and says There's no Santa cause I ate him!
  
• You know he sheds his skin once a year.
  
• I once saw him scissor kick Angela Lansberry.
  
• Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky and I went horseback riding, but there weren't any horses around? Anyway, Brasky throws a saddle on my back and rides me around Wyoming for three days. Well, wouldn't ya know it, my stamina increased with each day, and I develop tremendous leg muscles. So anyway, Brasky decides to enter me into the Breeders Cup under the name Turkish Delight. And Im running in second place, and I'm running, and I break my ankle. So anyway, they're about to shoot me. Then someone from the crowd yells out, God bless him, Dont shoot him, hes a human.
  
• Ya know, he jumped off the Empire State Building this one time and he only sprained his ankle.
  
• Like an alligator he can fully digest a turtle shell.
  
• His favorite TV movie is The Boy In The Plastic Bubble starring John Travolta.
  
• Bill Brasky is an eight foot two ton monster who can palm a medicine ball.
  
• So anyway, Brasky would put on a white tie and tails and walk his cobra through the park on a leash. He named the cobra Beverly, and he taught it how to fetch and dial a phone. But then one day it bit the maid. So with tears in his eyes, Brasky had to shoot the maid.
  
• Brasky would use his own thigh as an anvil.
  
• Ya know, it was the sight of Brasky's naked body that drove Brian Wilson insane.
  
• He showers in grain alcohol.
  
• He uses the Shroud of Turin as a gold towel.
  
• He killed Wolfman Jack with a trident.
  
• He drives an ice cream truck covered in human skulls.
  
• His first name is Bill.
  
• He makes every woman that sleeps with him refer to him as Bear Bryant.
  
• He once ate the Bible while water skiing.
  
• He once had sex with a cigarette machine.

http://www.psychonob...ges/quotes.html

 

[3dtv]

Yes we will move into the M/B process. AFTER the first seniority is settled.

You did read that in the NY transcripts correct?

THE COURT: All right. And it sounds like no one
11 in the Arizona litigation disputes the proposition that it
12 is important to get a timely answer as quickly as possible,
13 that is to the merits of that litigation, both for the
14 parties -- those parties to be able to put the matter behind
15 them and also that everyone understands that that issue
16 needs to be resolved before integration in this merger would
17 be addressed.

THE COURT: Well, it's a precondition to the
11 integration that's contemplated by this merger.
12 MR. BUTLER: Right.
13 THE COURT: You have to figure out what the rights
14 are within that airline first.
15 MR. BUTLER: Right.


You can try and ignore the facts but the court and the creditors will.

The integration between east and west is separate from US Airways and american. East and west has to be done prior. "precondition" to this merger.

Is there another way to read these statements from the court? Spin away. Plain language.

everyone understands that that issue
16 needs to be resolved before integration in this merger would
17 be addressed.

THE COURT: Well, it's a precondition to the
11 integration that's contemplated by this merger.

The INTEGRATION occurs AFTER the merger. Pretty simple. Read the MOU.

 

[Res Judicata]

Where it says that all current contracts are in force until POR, then they all go away and the lists will only change under section 10 of the MOU.

So USAPA, in concert with the Company flatly lied to the pilots regarding the MOU effect on East West seniority integration? Everybody present in NY last week understood the situation perfectly. When your Lawyer tried to claim that everybody agreed via the MOU to have a 3 way integration he was immediately, and aggressively shut down by Judge Lane. The West or East are not parties to the MOU. I guess you guys are getting comfortable identifying /suing the wrong parties. You're under a joint MOU now and will be under a joint CBA at the POR AND you are being forced to crawl through a vast judicial minefield long before then. That ripeness shield is shrinking before your eyes.

Here's where you need to cough up that LUP that every single legal entity has made it clear you're required to have....(insert laugh track here) best of luck to you.

 

[Phoenix]

Mass Hysteria.