Attrition at US and AWA

[luvn737s]

Since so much is made from "career expectations"/etc................................................
I post the following without improper malice, nor any twist of the truth as per your most senior guys:

They couldn't even get a job at any serious "big league" airline or they would have done so.

AWA was "The Pits" during that period. NO ONE with any sale-able qualifications wanted to work there. Why would they have? There was no pension/lousy work rules, and an insignificant route structure....pretty much like things are today, now that I think on it. I well recall the frequent pity-parties that were conversationally held for 2 members of my reserve squadron that used the place to build more commercial time...only after being very unlucky at other interviews. We literally offered continued encouragement to them that they'd get a "real job" eventually.

con·de·scend·ing(knd-sndng)
adj.
Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude: see USAirways :down:

 

[UseYourHead]

Cactus,

I did not see this part and wanted to respond. The situation with a guy that was #1 or #100 now #518 or #700 is a great example to talk about. He has had a major benefit and boost to his career. At #518 or #700 he can fly Tranoceanic captain with a big boost in pay and a huge quality of life improvement while at work.

These guys had ZERO chance of doing this job prior to integration. Just because he is not #1 he is still #1 on the narrowbody roster just as I went from 1700 to 2700 keeping my relative postion.

The windfalls come into play when in my example I was going to be a lineholding A330 Captain, and now I never come anywhere near that while someone who never had any chance of flying that equipment takes that spot.

As I said in another post, having been through many mergers I know there are ways to address issues like these.

There are hundreds of AWA pilots who fall into this flying and hundreds of AAA pilots who once were in line for this and now will come no where close to it.

These are facts and in fact windfalls!

What kind of reasoning is this? We have the same situation on our side too! Our #1 guy with 24 years is now 500 + number down the list. Seriously, do think our top guys like this award? I can tell you for certain they are feeling a bit betrayed by AWA, and I for one think they got royally hosed. They started the Company! We are a home grown pure bread airline right from the sands of Phoenix bro, and the only major carrier that has survived post deregulation, so I would say those top guys were expecting to retire on top as well...ain't gonna happen.

 

[Pennsylvania_born]

Since so much is made from "career expectations"/etc................................................
I post the following without improper malice, nor any twist of the truth as per your most senior guys:

They couldn't even get a job at any serious "big league" airline or they would have done so.

AWA was "The Pits" during that period. NO ONE with any sale-able qualifications wanted to work there. Why would they have? There was no pension/lousy work rules, and an insignificant route structure....pretty much like things are today, now that I think on it. I well recall the frequent pity-parties that were conversationally held for 2 members of my reserve squadron that used the place to build more commercial time...only after being very unlucky at other interviews. We literally offered continued encouragement to them that they'd get a "real job" eventually.

This post deserves some rebuttal. The early pilots at AWA were very experienced and had an unusual streak of entreprenurism. It was like investing in a promising but risky new stock instead of a mature stock with slow growth.Since the airline was doubling in size, and new hires were upgrading within months, the core group were experienced 737 pilots.

I happened to work on the hiring committee and in the training department in the mid 80's. Many pilots were coming from Frontier, Continental strikers, TransAmerica and World Airways.

I happened to catch the tailwind and upgraded to captain in 18 months, at age 30, and three years later on the 757. I chose not to go to American in 1985 because of the B scale(an admittedly short-sighted, poor decision) and turned down Piedmont in late 1985

Our pilots responded to the challenges of initiating 747 and 757 service, and were among the first to fly the EFIS 737's, and the Airbus A-320 in a very professional manner.I remember both UAL and USAir snooping around the property and hiring our instructors to help them with the Airbus.We consider ourselves among the finest pilots in the industry and we have the safety record to back it up.

This display of demeaning the AWA pilots because of age, experience or any other criteria is simply adolescent name calling and you should be ashamed of yourself! We fought to get ALPA on the property. We fought for a retirement plan. We endured CH 11 and furloughs way before you. We had some first officers on probationary pay minus 10% for over 3 years! Do not consider us as junior birdmen or apprentices. We have earned the same level of professional respect as any other pilot group.

 

[UseYourHead]

Penn,

Well said and I hope that none of my posts came off this way. I went to People Express in 1984 and many of my friends went to AWA. I absolutely respect the AWA pilot gruop as I do any professional birdmen.

I have responded to one of your fellow aviators requesting to be shown where the windfalls are in the integration. I have written about what I honestly believe without name calling or degregation of any sort (and I would appreciate the same treatment in return). I am not interested in that kind of non-sense and in fact have not posted here for quite a while becuase of that.

However we now find ourseleves in a situation where because of an arbitrated award east & west at at odds with each other...we all lose in this scenario. Jerry Glass and management will eat our lunch when we allow issue such as these to devide us.

I am simply attempting to add another rational viewpoint into the mix and I hope that I help both sides to better understand the others issues.

There are some issues here that are best dealt with in a fair and equitable manner. There is common ground out there and know we can end up there.

Sincerely,

UYH

This post deserves some rebuttal. The early pilots at AWA were very experienced and had an unusual streak of entreprenurism. It was like investing in a promising but risky new stock instead of a mature stock with slow growth.Since the airline was doubling in size, and new hires were upgrading within months, the core group were experienced 737 pilots.

I happened to work on the hiring committee and in the training department in the mid 80's. Many pilots were coming from Frontier, Continental strikers, TransAmerica and World Airways.

I happened to catch the tailwind and upgraded to captain in 18 months, at age 30, and three years later on the 757. I chose not to go to American in 1985 because of the B scale(an admittedly short-sighted, poor decision) and turned down Piedmont in late 1985

Our pilots responded to the challenges of initiating 747 and 757 service, and were among the first to fly the EFIS 737's, and the Airbus A-320 in a very professional manner.I remember both UAL and USAir snooping around the property and hiring our instructors to help them with the Airbus.We consider ourselves among the finest pilots in the industry and we have the safety record to back it up.

This display of demeaning the AWA pilots because of age, experience or any other criteria is simply adolescent name calling and you should be ashamed of yourself! We fought to get ALPA on the property. We fought for a retirement plan. We endured CH 11 and furloughs way before you. We had some first officers on probationary pay minus 10% for over 3 years! Do not consider us as junior birdmen or apprentices. We have earned the same level of professional respect as any other pilot group.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

UseYourHead,
From one professional pilot to another, I have to say you are right to a certain extent. My colleagues might not like to hear what I'm about to say, but I think the existing wide bodies belong to the East pilots only and they should be fenced off to west. At least that would allow those that had wide body expectation to still maintain that status. However, any additional wide body flying should be shared and bid based on what your seniority can hold on the new list.

Please do not take this as acknowledgement of a windfall, it is only my opinion that an inequity exists. The arbitration panel obviously did not feel the same. There are inequities for the west too so I am not sure how we would resolve all or any of them to each others satisfaction. For example, prior to the merger AWA pilots were upgrading but that came to an abrupt halt after the merger was announced, while east has recalled and upgraded many. The feeling in the west is that all of that movement on the east came at the expense of the west.

I have personally been setback at least 4-5 years from upgrade as a result of the merger, where prior to it was within months. I have come to terms with that and can finally start to think rationally again.

I did not see this part and wanted to respond. The situation with a guy that was #1 or #100 now #518 or #700 is a great example to talk about. He has had a major benefit and boost to his career. At #518 or #700 he can fly Tranoceanic captain with a big boost in pay and a huge quality of life improvement while at work.

These guys had ZERO chance of doing this job prior to integration. Just because he is not #1 he is still #1 on the narrowbody roster just as I went from 1700 to 2700 keeping my relative postion.

The windfalls come into play when in my example I was going to be a lineholding A330 Captain, and now I never come anywhere near that while someone who never had any chance of flying that equipment takes that spot.

 

[UseYourHead]

Cactus,

Thanks for your views on the WB issue, and I completely understand your comments about West upgrades. I am sure that anyone from either side can understand that too, and in fact, it is a fact that it happened that way.

One more fact is that with the Nic Awd a great many East folks see the upgrade opportunities from attrition (738 rt with 2800 +/- active pilots) watered down as well, even though folks from the West have already had West upgrades washed out for now due to the merger.

Now some would argue that if not for the merger East would be gone and AWA would have been in bk and cut back 15% changing all of the above anyway...ya know what?

It does not matter about any of that because it did not happen that way and WE (East & West) need to reach common ground on all of the above and any other areas the result in a bug being up someones bottom end.

We need to do this because WE need to get on with the business of a joint contract (so that we are treated and paid as we deserve) & all walk fwd together in a unified fashion.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. WE need to stop the infighting in the pilot group and turn our energy toward some positive and unified goals.

One thing is for sure, time is going to march on, the question is how will this pilot group heal going fwd? The last thing we need is a disfunctional, self sabatoging unit of misfits to ensure our collective failure.

Both groups have been through hell-on-earth in the past and lived to see this day. There is common ground in our future if we steer that direction.

I will do anything I can do to row that direction. I have an open mind as we go fwd vigilant of the fact that our actions now seal our collective future.

We all deserve to be treated with professional courtesy and understanding compassion (of both East & West sore spots) as we go fwd.

Sincerely,

UYH

UseYourHead,
From one professional pilot to another, I have to say you are right to a certain extent. My colleagues might not like to hear what I'm about to say, but I think the existing wide bodies belong to the East pilots only and they should be fenced off to west. At least that would allow those that had wide body expectation to still maintain that status. However, any additional wide body flying should be shared and bid based on what your seniority can hold on the new list.

Please do not take this as acknowledgement of a windfall, it is only my opinion that an inequity exists. The arbitration panel obviously did not feel the same. There are inequities for the west too so I am not sure how we would resolve all or any of them to each others satisfaction. For example, prior to the merger AWA pilots were upgrading but that came to an abrupt halt after the merger was announced, while east has recalled and upgraded many. The feeling in the west is that all of that movement on the east came at the expense of the west.

I have personally been setback at least 4-5 years from upgrade as a result of the merger, where prior to it was within months. I have come to terms with that and can finally start to think rationally again.

 

[CV580ETOPS]

[quote name=

 

[john john]

This post is a factual post with regard to my position

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...mp;#entry275555
"I am fully prepared to accept that result."

 

[UseYourHead]

I am very sursprised and 2 posts down was this:

Rudy Jun 5 2005, 10:44 PM Post #13


Member

Group: Registered Member
Posts: 20
Joined: 11-September 02
Member No.: 934

One thing that is often overlooked is the fact that in the next 5 to 7 years, over 2/3 of USAir's pilots retire. That's a HUGE movement for those left. Personally, I'm 51 and on a medical leave, in the top 900 at U and don't care if I ever go back. Even if I get my medical back, I'll most likely pass. It's just not the same job anymore.....

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...mp;#entry275555
"I am fully prepared to accept that result."