Attrition at US and AWA

[EricLv2Fish]

I just hope you loud mouthed pricks run your mouth. You will all be treated like #### so come on down. You know we got screwed and you know you got a windfall. Sugar coat it all you want but we will NEVER allow you to steal our jobs. Come on big mouth come east and act like a pr&^k .

Uh...lemme guess...must be from Philly

 

[EastUS]

Uh...lemme guess...must be from Philly

Not really...I've heard many, many conversations throughout the east system that make Hawhunter's post seem a bit "sugar coated".

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

I disagree. The east/west will share in the attrition of the combined list. Let's see what that means.

Setting aside the top 500 spots going to East pilots, the arbitrator slotted 2 US pilots to every 1 AWA. Thus 2/3 of all captain attrition will go to east pilots. That means over this 5 year period east will have upgraded 2/3 x total attrited captain spots on the combined list versus all on your current list. So, what is the difference? 2/3 * 1015 (738 + 277) = 676 captain upgrades versus 738 separately. A small reduction, but after you consider all the upgrades that thave taken place since merger compared to the West, in addtion to the top 500 spots going to east, I think the scale tips in favor of the east.

So by all rights a merger policy which doesn't provide a windfall and maintains pre merger expectations should produce 738 pilots off the East list upgrading to Captain and 277 off the West list. The same breakdown goes for line holder positions and access to premium equipment and so on and so forth. Likewise future mergers should not continue to impact progression to these positions. This doesn't even come close to that. DOH, with condition and restriction is the only method that does.

 

[EastUS]

I disagree. I think the scale tips in favor of the east.

Whew!...That's a huge relief!! All this time out East; we've been thinking that it's an unacceptable, and even ubelievable hose-job!. I have to go tell all the guys right away!

I'm assuming that you posted that purely for chuckles.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

If upgrading to captain is of no concern to you then this award will have absolutely no impact for you since you maintained your same relative position as before. If you are a senior FO, you still are now.

After reading these boards the past couple of weeks, it seems as though there are several issues at play. One is the concern over captain vacancies through attrition, another is quality of life, and yet another more seemingly sinister reason. Could it be that egos are getting in the way? Is it that much of an issue to have an east pilot with 16 years LOS holding the same biding position as a west pilot with lesser LOS? If you understand the award and know what relative means, then why does this make any difference if ego and a sense of entitlement are not in play here?

Also it is not only about the left seat. When you have been here 20 years and most of it on reserve or bottom blockholder, just moving up the list to get weekends and holidays off is a big deal. That is what the attrition for some or most of those F/Os is all about. Quality of life is really much more important than money. Maybe after 20 years or so at this crappy business, this will become evident.

 

[EastUS]

Is it that much of an issue to have an east pilot with 16 years LOS holding the same biding position as a west pilot with lesser LOS?

YES it is.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

No chuckle intended, East. Just the facts dude. Look, if you cannot figure all of this out yourself I am certainly not going to change your opinion.

It's about time we get down to brass tax, so I took less than an hour to do some calculations of my own to see this so called "windfall" to the west, and well, frankly, I don't see it and the numbers don't show it. Now the world can see this for what it really is.

Show me some numbers that refute my data instead of regurgitating the same crap over and over. You talk the talk now walk the walk, show me the "windfall" East!

Whew!...That's a huge relief!! All this time out East; we've been thinking that it's an unacceptable, and even ubelievable hose-job!. I have to go tell all the guys right away!

I'm assuming that you posted that purely for chuckles.

 

[Callsign_Cactus]

Why? What did 16 years earn you at US? A junior FO spot? AWA pilots should not be penalized because you invested your career in an Enron.

Could it be that old "gotta earn it" type mentality? Well I have earned it brother. Should I get credit for combat time while serving my country? Why not, I've earned it!!!! Your misplaced sense of entitlement and EGO are clouding your judement.

YES it is.

 

[autofixer]

If upgrading to captain is of no concern to you then this award will have absolutely no impact for you since you maintained your same relative position as before. If you are a senior FO, you still are now.


I did not say that upgrading AGAIN (I was a captain on the 737-300, 4 years before the guy senior to me on the new list was hired, thanks to 9-11 and incompetent management.) was of no concern to me; it is just quality of life is of more importance to me personally. Sure I would like to be a block holding 757 captain here in CLT, but it ain't never gonna happen, ever.

Have a nice Memorial Day Weekend everyone and think of the troops in the field and those who are never coming home. God bless! Over and out, 'till next week.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It appears the Merger committees and the ALPA executive committee agree that the protected positions on the widebodies are for named pilots, not 517 slots.

Later,

A320 Driver B)

It's really a difference without a distinction, as we discussed way back when. 517 slots are protected, but they're protected for the top 517 East pilots - that puts names on the protection.

In a sense, it's the chicken and egg thing - did the names come first and the number 517 come from counting the names, or did the number 517 come first and the names come because they happened to be in that number of top positions. I look at it as the 517 positions came first, then the names were applied.

At the end of the day, it's six one half dozen the other....

Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

It's really a difference without a distinction, as we discussed way back when. 517 slots are protected, but they're protected for the top 517 East pilots - that puts names on the protection.

In a sense, it's the chicken and egg thing - did the names come first and the number 517 come from counting the names, or did the number 517 come first and the names come because they happened to be in that number of top positions. I look at it as the 517 positions came first, then the names were applied.

At the end of the day, it's six one half dozen the other....

Jim

Just to the extent that some folks thought the protection slid down the seniority list as those in the 517 retired. The protection retires with them. Of course, all of this is about to be moot anyway since the age 60 rule is about to go away...and the restriction with it. Basically I agree with your point though.



A320 Driver B)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just to the extent that some folks thought the protection slid down the seniority list as those in the 517 retired. The protection retires with them.
A320 Driver B)

Yes, thinking that the protection survives the retirement/disability/whatever of the 517 named pilots would definitely be wrong.

The 4 years is pretty meaningless anyway - those 517 can successfully bid a widebody anytime they want unless outbid by another of the 517 higher on the list. Since the youngest of the 517 were born in 1958 & 1959, they'll be at the top of the list for a long time to come.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Why? What did 16 years earn you at US? A junior FO spot? AWA pilots should not be penalized because you invested your career in an Enron.

Could it be that old "gotta earn it" type mentality? Well I have earned it brother. Should I get credit for combat time while serving my country? Why not, I've earned it!!!! Your misplaced sense of entitlement and EGO are clouding your judement.

1)I'm not in the 16 year bracket.

2)MY..."misplaced....EGO"?..You're hardly the only one posting around here with combat time. Being the antiques that many of us are...we've had more available wars There's a considerable number of us who've given at the office...and have far more airline time as well. You're equipped, via experience, to have a full understanding of "Date of Commission"/"Date of Rank"/"Time in Grade"..Have those sorts of concepts suddenly become so mysterious to you? If you were assigned exchange officer duties with a different branch....should you again put on a Butter Bar?

3)I didn't "sign on" for USAir...it was a sad business of being bought. I sure-as-HELL didn't "sign on" for AWA...yet here we all are..Get it now? That's a real "joy" that you may very likely experience yourself within the next few years. If you've not yet figured out that AWA, as it is currently being "managed", is also an "Enron" in process...you must be pretty new to the commercial sector of the sky. Trust me...I'd like to be wrong, but I have seen thieving idiots destroy airlines first hand, and several times now. If you still envision this as a "career"...you ARE "new"

4)Given all the mutual admiration and "Up Yours" stuff hereabouts...any ideas on how to fix this mess so we can actually get this abortion formed into a workable airline?

5)Without any intended smartazzed BS on my part:I truly hope that you've kept a Guard or Reserve slot...This mess ain't lookin' none too good, and at least there's some retirement bennies to be had, not to mention "actual flying".

Addendum: Would there be any way to work out Fences with AWA guys in return for something from the East by way of some type of accomodatons? I don't have but a few years left to play airliner...but I'd like to someday enjoy more than the crew and the view again..like a decent work enviornment...which we're not anywhere close to gaining as yet.

 

[SkyRat]

I just love post from you idiots that actually think AWA is such a great company. AWA was always the last choice to go to work for because it is and was a #### airline. Did I mention it started with scabs and still scabbed not long ago. Show me one bit of evidence that shows AAA was going to go Chapter 7. I am done posting on here so see you out east. I just hope you loud mouthed pricks run your mouth. You will all be treated like #### so come on down. You know we got screwed and you know you got a windfall. Sugar coat it all you want but we will NEVER allow you to steal our jobs. Come on big mouth come east and act like a pr&^k .

Funny Hawky!!!

Now deal with what YOUR MEC and MC did!

And don't frigging blame US!

Get use to it.

GL

 

[73320]

Addendum: Would there be any way to work out Fences with AWA guys in return for something from the East by way of some type of accomodatons? I don't have but a few years left to play airliner...but I'd like to someday enjoy more than the crew and the view again..like a decent work enviornment...which we're not anywhere close to gaining as yet.

[/quote]

EastUS,

I do not know what my west proposals were regarding fences, but I do not believe the east was at liberty to negotiate them. I could be wrong but it seems like it was DOH and nothing else from your side. That is what we were told at the time. That said, I think that you should have had longer fences on the heavies and some % of your attrition. The trouble with that is what happens if they downsize like they seem to be doing now. We might all be stagnating and I do believe we are now witnessing what you folks have suffered for far too long. There is nothing you have that I want, I hope you all get to keep it, and realize whatever attrition you actually have in flyable vacancies. No disrespect as US was a much better job than west, but I have no interest in commuting, even for heavies. I have no interest in flying out of your bases. I think you will have a natural peer pressure fence. Some will move east and some west, the best we can hope for is a wash, and no more fleet reduction, maybe even some growth, God forbid. I am a junior PHX Capt. and would not commute to LAS to hold a line. I do not have the power to offer you anything accept empathy for your(s), and now our plight. I can also offer you professional courtesy by staying put in PHX, but it was my plan all along. Sincere best wishes for all of us!