AUG/SEPT 2012 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

What a radical concept using seniority as the criteria to integrate seniority lists.

A true pity that nothing of the sort was even attempted here by Mr. Nic.....

 

[Pi brat]

Can it be any other way when the top 517 positions were given to the East?

You're looking at it wrong Jake. It's more like "how does that happen despite the east being given the 517 positions?"

At our seniority range we had maybe a tiny bump in relative positions if the Nic had gone into effect right then, vs east standalone. From several years ago, until we retire, our relative positions on the Nic (static) vs east standalone(static) continues to drop.

 

[EastUS1]

Like the INTEGRITY? what a farce. This is what we are dealing with. It is righteous and full of integrity, if it suits them.

Well..In addition to some necessary, hearty chuckles...at least it makes for some Waay-Cool-Dude T-shirts though...Ya' gotta' admit that much. 😉

Seriously though; how some of these people can post what they routinely do..and entirely miss the inherent and often extreme contradictions within their own material...well...must remain a mystery to me. Those furloughed don't "bring" any supposed "job" and have no value whatsoever (by often and loudly proclaimed west "moral" standards anyway)...BUT....they now demand protection for their furloughed. I mean really...I can't even imagine how anyone could ever just make this stuff up as they go....at least while keeping a straight face anyway. 😉

 

[CallawayGolf]

A true pity that nothing of the sort was even attempted here by Mr. Nic.....

Please explain. Seniority status on each pre-merger list wasn't the basis for crafting the integrated seniority list per the award? Doesn't really matter from a legal perspective,but I'll be standing by for your reply.

 

[nevergiveup]

This is fun; not upset in the least.

Does McDonald's offer their senior discounts to people based on anything other than their age? I believe age is their sole criteria and that was the analogy you used. So it seemed reasonable that you were proposing we toss all other factors besides age out of the SLI discussion. Nicolau used seniority (not DOH/LOS) to integrate the two seniority lists. What a radical concept using seniority as the criteria to integrate seniority lists. Who would have ever imagined a foreign but thoroughly logical concept such as this?

right or wrong, it has taken us to where we are now and I don't think anyone is happy, except me when I get my senior coffee discount!

 

[EastUS1]

right or wrong, it has taken us to where we are now and I don't think anyone is happy, except me when I get my senior coffee discount!

Personally...I'm good with the coffee thing myself. 😉 It's truly the little things in life that make the day.....

 

[CallawayGolf]

You're looking at it wrong Jake. It's more like "how does that happen despite the east being given the 517 positions?"

At our seniority range we had maybe a tiny bump in relative positions if the Nic had gone into effect right then, vs east standalone. From several years ago, until we retire, our relative positions on the Nic (static) vs east standalone(static) continues to drop.

You agreed with my mathematical descriptions of the effects of changes on a seniority list and then your turn around an make this assertion without any data to back it up. If the denominator shrinks everyone remaining on the list loses at an equal rate. If it expands everyone gains at the same rate. If it remains numerically static then an east and west pilot who are next to each other on the list move up or stay the same based on where the attrition occurs. So, how exactly does pilot 2401 on the list move up faster than pilot number 2400? Further, how exactly does pilot number 2400 move to 2399 while pilot 2401 goes to 2402? Who slid into the position between those two east and west pilots and how? Where in the award can I find that explanation?

 

[EastUS1]

Please explain. Seniority status on each pre-merger list wasn't the basis for crafting the integrated seniority list per the award?

I'm surprised that you could even ask that, since even by west notions; it VERY obviously was NOT! How else do you explain the 517 top slots all going east, just for starters? Whatever perverse combination of tarot cards, ouija boards, astrological signs, and perhaps even the unsavory reading of portents in animal entrails that followed, well...one can truly only guess at.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'm surprised that you could even ask that, since even by west notions; it VERY obviously was NOT! How else do you explain the 517 top slots all going east, just for starters?

He gave the 517 east WB pilots special protections that he didn't give the west because his intention not to jeopardize east pilots ability to retain their current positions after the list was implemented. Makes sense, so how did he integrate the remaining east pilots and all of the west pilots? Was there a pattern or formula or something like that or was he drawing names out of a hat?

 

[EastUS1]

He gave the 517 east WB pilots special protections that he didn't give the west..............Makes sense,....

Umm...Sure thing, if you say so. 😉 So then....umm..why wasn't everyone's current aircraft assignment used as any even slightly consistent basis for this insane, pathetic clusterf-k? 75-76 is one schoolhouse run through with dual types out east. Using the "relative seniority" BS: Were your 757 folks (who did NOT receive direct protection ala the east 517) akin to those in some scene from Waynes' World...left to bow and chant "We're not worthy!"...?

Take your time..and please don't needlessly slaughter even any innocent chickens to get a "reading"...there's always the tarot cards/etc! 😉

 

[Pi brat]

You agreed with my mathematical descriptions of the effects of changes on a seniority list and then your turn around an make this assertion without any data to back it up. If the denominator shrinks everyone remaining on the list loses at an equal rate. If it expands everyone gains at the same rate. If it remains numerically static then an east and west pilot who are next to each other on the list move up or stay the same based on where the attrition occurs. So, how exactly does pilot 2401 on the list move up faster than pilot number 2400? Further, how exactly does pilot number 2400 move to 2399 while pilot 2401 goes to 2402? Who slid into the position between those two east and west pilots and how? Where in the award can I find that explanation?

Well, I confess to just skimming your post because I can only stomach so much of your arrogant, condescending tone.

I took your post to mean two guys progressing on the same list. I'm talking about standalone progression vs the Nicolau progression. Does that help or are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

[Claxon]

A true pity that nothing of the sort was even attempted here by Mr. Nic.....

Nicolau gave you no choice other than what you did. The westerners were adequately warned what would happen. Their choice to misunderstand the options the easterners had. Leaving ALPA was the only way to get justice for a flawed award after ALPA was not proactive. Johnny Mac chose to ignore the reality. His loss. The Nicolau is absolutely non binding on USAPA. A point continually lost on the western division pilots on this board.

 

[EastUS1]

The westerners were adequately warned what would happen. Their choice to misunderstand the options the easterners had.

True enough. An excess of delusional arrogance ruled the west roost then though = "You won't even get 200 cards!...Send the cards...I DARE you!"/etc, ad nauseum. Why do they keep whining about it?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well, I confess to just skimming your post because I can only stomach so much of your arrogant, condescending tone.

I took your post to mean two guys progressing on the same list. I'm talking about standalone progression vs the Nicolau progression. Does that help or are you intentionally being obtuse?

I'm not being obtuse at all; just trying to figure out the logic of how two pilots on the same list could move at different rates using the Nicolau. Thanks to your more complete explanation I understand now that you mean the east benefits more from separate ops than by allowing the integration to move forward per the intended purpose and process called for by the TA. I guess that's why USAPA got parked by the NMB because they are not looking for a contract and clearly prefer separate ops to any JCBA that could be offered. Is there any wonder why the parked and injuncted USAPA is of no consequence to anyone?

 

[Move2CLT]

Like the INTEGRITY? what a farce. This is what we are dealing with. It is righteous and full of integrity, if it suits them.

Said the east PoS.

Eat your Bojangles you f'ing hypocrite.