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August 2013 Pilot Discussion

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cleardirect said:
Shows how little you know about the ninth. Do some research into how long the average appeal takes in the ninth. Even if Silver were to rule on 9-24 (which i doubt). The earliest usapa would file an appeal with e ninth is mid December.6-8 months before the ninth even responds and set a schedule. A couple delay requests and usapa is long, long gone.

Now why would the APA continue with an appeal that gains the majority nothing? The APA does not care what our list looks like. The APA simply wants a list they can integrate with their list and move forward as fast as possible.

Delay is not what the APA wants. Continuing the pilot divide is not what the APA wants. Another seniority fight is not want the APA wants. They already have one they don't need another one.
Click to expand...

What could you be missing in that whole equation?
 
Judge Silver has reframed the DFR to look at the MOU, not at the creation of USAPA. Since the MOU is not even applicable until the POR, damages would only start then. Guess it comes down to the Judge simply imposing the NIC, with the logic our pilots voted on it while being told the MOU would NOT affect any current seniority lists. It's right there in the MOU, and in official comm. Voting on the MOU has no effect on current listS. Greeter had it right, ripe and dismissed. It took me a while to understand why she is even having the hearing, but I guess she has to. The question at hand is essentially a new one, not addressed in the various pleadings. The process will continue, and absent a new tactic from Marty, there will be no injunction and no DFR. As others have said, the real issue has always been trying to get the West Class a seat that the table. I would not be surprised she really goes off the reservation in an attempt to grant that. US Airways legal already got egg on their face telling Parker it would be a three way. This should be interesting. RR
 
Reed Richards said:
Judge Silver has reframed the DFR to look at the MOU, not at the creation of USAPA. Since the MOU is not even applicable until the POR, damages would only start then. Guess it comes down to the Judge simply imposing the NIC, with the logic our pilots voted on it while being told the MOU would NOT affect any current seniority lists. It's right there in the MOU, and in official comm. Voting on the MOU has no effect on current listS. Greeter had it right, ripe and dismissed. It took me a while to understand why she is even having the hearing, but I guess she has to. The question at hand is essentially a new one, not addressed in the various pleadings. The process will continue, and absent a new tactic from Marty, there will be no injunction and no DFR. As others have said, the real issue has always been trying to get the West Class a seat that the table. I would not be surprised she really goes off the reservation in an attempt to grant that. US Airways legal already got egg on their face telling Parker it would be a three way. This should be interesting. RR
Click to expand...

You are right about one thing. Judge Silver does not to look at the creation of usapa she has already made a decision on that.

A group of East Pilots formed a new labor organization known as USAPA. USAPA
was originally, and remains to this day, committed to the combined pilot list being based
primarily on date-of-hire. In other words, USAPA was formed to ensure that the Nicolau
Award not govern the seniority issue.

Is that enough for a DFR right there? A union created to disadvantage the minority and ignore their inherited obligation.

usapa told the court they would consider the Nicolau until Shamanski told her he did not really mean it.

usapa told the membership that the MOU was neutral until it passed than told the membership that it was not neutral but that the west should have known that it was going to be DOH. That my friends is fraud. Is that enough for a DFR?

We shall see.

Scheduling a trail with the intention of dismissing. Not likely. As I asked the question before. If she dismisses how does this little problem get fixed?

Can't use M/B. usapa does not want to go to baseball arbitration. Usapa does not want the west at the table for a three way. That leaves us with a federal judge imposing what we all agreed and an arbitrator decided or the biased union imposing what they could not get during a fair and neutral process. Which one do you think the court will pick?
 
Did USAPA breach it's DFR by entering into the MOU?... If so, as ruled by the Judge, Is the MOU thrown out?
 
nevergiveup said:
Is sept 24th a trial date or a hearing? There is some conflicting info.
Click to expand...

From the judge.



IT IS FURTHER ORDERED trial on the merits is accelerated and will be held at
the same time as the preliminary injunction hearing. That hearing is set for September 24,
2013 at 9:00 a.m.
 
high*flyer said:
Did USAPA breach it's DFR by entering into the MOU?... If so, as ruled by the Judge, Is the MOU thrown out?
Click to expand...
The DFR is not using the Nicolau in the MOU. The judge ordered usapa to use the Nicolau of have a damn good reason (LUP). Usapa does not have one. So no the MOU is not thrown out.

Just an injunction ordering usapa to use the Nicolau.

As always usapa was free to negotiate 29 sections of the contract. Section 22 was decided by an arbitrator.
 
cleardirect said:
The DFR is not using the Nicolau in the MOU. The judge ordered usapa to use the Nicolau of have a damn good reason (LUP). Usapa does not have one. So no the MOU is not thrown out.

Just an injunction ordering usapa to use the Nicolau.

As always usapa was free to negotiate 29 sections of the contract. Section 22 was decided by an arbitrator.
Click to expand...

When does the countdown start?

FS
 
cleardirect said:
You are right about one thing. Judge Silver does not to look at the creation of usapa she has already made a decision on that.

A group of East Pilots formed a new labor organization known as USAPA. USAPA
was originally, and remains to this day, committed to the combined pilot list being based
primarily on date-of-hire. In other words, USAPA was formed to ensure that the Nicolau
Award not govern the seniority issue.

Is that enough for a DFR right there? A union created to disadvantage the minority and ignore their inherited obligation.
...
Click to expand...

You are reading into Silver's words something she did not say in that statement. Your words are a conclusion. Just more lectures from you.

Her words are merely descriptive and her judgement about it will come later. The 9th said that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nic as was ALPA, but maybe that was just an academic hypothesis... If ALPA was indeed constrained by itself and powerless to have oversight of its own policy then I suppose Silver could find that USAPA was likewise powerless to have any oversight of the SLI process, but then she should have just said that during the declaratory judgement trial. If on the other hand it is conceivable that ALPA or USAPA could in some circumstances ultimately still have legitimate oversight and adequate cause to abandon the Nic... well then its only fair they get a chance to explain themselves and its only fair for those that lose their lottery ticket to have a judge tell them to Wake up from the dream. :lol:
 
cleardirect said:
The DFR is not using the Nicolau in the MOU. The judge ordered usapa to use the Nicolau of have a damn good reason (LUP). Usapa does not have one. So no the MOU is not thrown out.

Just an injunction ordering usapa to use the Nicolau.

As always usapa was free to negotiate 29 sections of the contract. Section 22 was decided by an arbitrator.
Click to expand...
To get a contract for everyone might be an LUP. Recall the ninth said it would be speculative at best that we could get one using the NIC. TKX for the hearing/trial clarification.
 
high*flyer said:
Did USAPA breach it's DFR by entering into the MOU?... If so, as ruled by the Judge, Is the MOU thrown out?
Click to expand...

The actual words of the Judge:


"The exact claim brought by the West Pilots is:

"USAPA breached its [duty of fair representation] because it made a contract that abandons a duty to treat the Nicolau award as final and binding. (Doc. 52 at 13) (emphasis in original)." [Doc 52 pg. 9 ln. 5]

The emphasis in the original is not Judge Silver's but is that of the plaintiff and it should be noted that the statement was not in support of showing guilt of a DFR but merely in showing ripeness, which of course is not an open question anymore because Judge Silver accepted the argument that the MOU "is a CBA" (Doc 122 pg. 3 ln. 17).

Ripeness is no longer the question. DFR is the question so the emphasis on the "exact claim" must now be on "abandons a duty". What was the nature of USAPA's ultimate Duty in relation to the Nic? Was it to advocate at all cost always and forever to use the Nic... the 9th saw that as problematic and that it would even delay or prevent any contract... how abut Jude Silver.. has she ever told USAPA they had an ultimate duty to follow the Nic to the exclusion of any other duty.. Did the Nic remove any and all discretion for USAPA or does USAPA have the duty to protect all pilots?


Silver the magician will undoubtedly pull a rabbit out of her hat. :lol:
 
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