August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[PullUp]

I think you are on to something here Cleardirect. I submit that both Federal "laws" apply, if that is even the correct term. M/B governs how the process of merging two labor groups is done. The NMB governs the definition of WHO the groups are. But I admit we are probably making new law here, since only one pilot merger to date has been determined by MB. The POR will come and go. Pay rates will go up, with a few trinkets added from the MOU. But if Silver chooses to put the question of who gets status to the test, I predict years of litigation and no merger of any groups. Which might be exactly what Parker and the gang wants anyway. I still say "dismissed" will be the ruling, but won't be crying any tears if it is otherwise. Separate ops and a shuffling of aircraft may or may not work out in my personal favor! RR

M/B for US & AA - but defers to the RLA precedent of the lawfully certified bargaining representative for each group.
Pretty clear cut. If Judge Silver grants status to a third party, we should all petition the court and the NMB for status representing our own interests. After all, I don't agree with everything USAPA wants to do in the seniority integration. I can hire a lawyer to represent my interests during the negotiation, can't I? Let's all hire lawyers (should be about 4,000 or so in the same room....)and hash this thing out.
I don't think so.
Dismissed with prejudice means be quiet, go away, and never bother me again.
Next case.
Cheers.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I helped force McKee to put the MOU out for a vote.

Still stings, doesn't it.

If you think Washington and Jefferson would approve of USAPA you are delusional.


Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company.

George Washington


In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

Thomas Jefferson

"We tied the knot forty years ago, and I'm still swinging from it."

George Jefferson

 

[traderjake]

How dare you attack the Father of our country! What a psycho. Conspiracy wack job.

I'm starting to think we're not pals again.

 

[cleardirect]

I think you are on to something here Cleardirect. I submit that both Federal "laws" apply, if that is even the correct term. M/B governs how the process of merging two labor groups is done. The NMB governs the definition of WHO the groups are. But I admit we are probably making new law here, since only one pilot merger to date has been determined by MB. The POR will come and go. Pay rates will go up, with a few trinkets added from the MOU. But if Silver chooses to put the question of who gets status to the test, I predict years of litigation and no merger of any groups. Which might be exactly what Parker and the gang wants anyway. I still say "dismissed" will be the ruling, but won't be crying any tears if it is otherwise. Separate ops and a shuffling of aircraft may or may not work out in my personal favor! RR

Which one of these statement do you interpret that the company is going to allow a protracted delay to integrating the workforces? what in any of these statement make you think Parker wants to run separate ops? What in any of those statements would lead you believe the company is hoping for, asking for or wanting judge Silver to dismiss this case?

a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the merger. That process is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the MOU and the merger.

US Airways’ Interest In Ensuring That The US Airways/American Pilots Seniority Integration Takes Place According To The Schedule Prescribed In The MOU And In Accordance With Its Obligations Under McCaskill-Bond, So That That There Is No Delay In The Realization Of The Operational And Financial Benefits From A Combined Pilot Workforce, Is A Significant Protectable Interest.

Because the plaintiffs’ DFR claim implicates how USAPA may proceed under the terms of the MOU, and because their McCaskill-Bond declaratory-relief claim implicates how all of the parties may proceed vis-à-vis the West Pilots, a failure to promptly resolve the merits of these claims would threaten to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the merger – a process that is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the MOU and the merger.

As noted in Section I.A, supra, the plaintiffs’ claims against USAPA implicate how the parties may proceed, and, as a result, a failure to promptly resolve the merits of those claims or a resolution that results in additional legal challenges would threaten to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots. That is a process which is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the merger.

8. The completion of the US Airways/American seniority-integration process is a key component of the MOU which, in turn, is critical to American’s restructuring plan. Because the West Pilots’ DFR claim implicates how USAPA may proceed under the terms of the MOU, a failure to promptly resolve the merits of the claim would threaten to disrupt and delay the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the merger – a process that is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and financial benefits from the combined pilot workforce that is contemplated by the MOU and the merger.

15. Given USAPA’s opposition to separate participation for the West Pilots in the McCaskill-Bond seniority-integration process, that process could be delayed and disrupted in the absence of a prompt decision from the Court. US Airways has a strong interest in avoiding any delay or disruption to the process of integrating US Airways and American pilots following the merger – a process that is central to the airline’s realization of the operational and financial benefits from a combined pilot workforce. The dispute regarding the West Pilots’ role can be resolved expeditiously and efficiently by this Court because the parties already have submitted extensive briefing on the subject (see ¶ 6, supra) and because the dispute involves a predominantly legal issue that does not require any additional factual development

What in those statments like strong interest in avoiding delays makes you think Parker wants delays? "Resolved expeditiously". dismissing this case does not resolve anything.

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks for clearing that up. I personally have moved past the "loss." 75% of our pilots did also. But you can spend the rest of your career lamenting the loss, and never embracing a process that moves us to things better. But I know I am not going to change your mind. I have read enough here to know you despise your fellow pilots that did not accept the NIC. You are honest and straight forward about that opinion, I respect that. RR

Moved pass the loss. Really? did you vote for the PBGC assessment? Were you OK with the BPR "stealing" $500,000 from general finds to keep fighting that loss?

 

[Res Judicata]

.Much appreciated Claxon, I will take that as a complement. I have been outed as much worse over the years here. As to the latest data release by the Company, I think the worst thing is some other employee actually saw my W2, and how little I made. RR

It's what you demanded...to be paid less than a commuter pilot. You demanded it and you got it in spades. I know. poor you, it wasnt your fault. the Universe is out to screw you. Of course it was all an enormous waste of money for your feel good temper tantrum as you're NEVER going to get your ridiculous DOH seniority list. Nic in suppository form on its way. I wonder how much worse off the East pilots will fare in the next seniority arbitration...you know, the "final and binding" one? I won't be surprised if some TWA furloughees are slotted higher than the 1999 "new hires" who apparently are unhireable at real airlines.

Personally, I'd staple every last one of those scabs to whatever list is derived. That sounds like fair and equitable treatment to me.

 

[Reed Richards]

What in those statments like strong interest in avoiding delays makes you think Parker wants delays? "Resolved expeditiously". dismissing this case does not resolve anything.

In general I don't believe anything Parker says. I note his comments before the LAS and PIT base closings; and especially his long oral history of not taking sides in our seniority dispute. And our friends at APA are going to get a wakeup call in the last days of the BK, when the dirty work starts before the judge, no matter what Parker told all those crew bases, airports, and Congressmen about status quo. You already won "ripe" (until an appeal if necessary) and are soon to get your day in court. What will be your venue for appeal if it is dismissed? I submit you would be done until a JCBA. RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Personally, I'd staple every last one of those scabs to whatever list is derived. That sounds like fair and equitable treatment to me.

Which is exactly why you personally will have no say in the issue. Now, run along and kick your dog, he's probably got it coming. RR

 

[Claxon]

It's what you demanded...to be paid less than a commuter pilot. You demanded it and you got it in spades.

america west pilot, ball and chain of the pilot profession, dares to speak his mind on pilot pay. Do the math.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2010%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

 

[Res Judicata]

america west pilot, ball and chain of the pilot profession, dares to speak his mind on pilot pay. Do the math.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2010%2012%20Month%20Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/Pilots/Average%20Annual%20Wages%20and%20Salaries%20-%20PILOT%20AND%20CO-PILOT%20PERSONNEL.htm

How much is your TOS narrow body captain get paid? $124/hr? HHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!
for how many YEARS has it been that way?HHHHHHAAAAA!!!!

Every legacy carrier's right seat pays well more than that. You deserve every bit of it. Run along now, your 90 days to a contract is only 1,890 days late! Hey isn't that close to the 1,879 hopelessly unemployed pilots you dragged with you to this merger? Odd.

 

[Claxon]

How much is your TOS narrow body captain get paid? $124/hr? HHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!
for how many YEARS has it been that way?HHHHHHAAAAA!!!!

Every legacy carrier's right seat pays well more than that. You deserve every bit of it. Run along now, your 90 days to a contract is only 1,890 days late! Hey isn't that close to the 1,879 hopelessly unemployed pilots you dragged with you to this merger? Odd.

How much have you moved on the west seniority list since the merger? You are at the same spot. For how many years? Do the math.

Enjoy your knee slapping, it takes away the abuse from the monkee you normally spank.

 

[cleardirect]

In general I don't believe anything Parker says. I note his comments before the LAS and PIT base closings; and especially his long oral history of not taking sides in our seniority dispute. And our friends at APA are going to get a wakeup call in the last days of the BK, when the dirty work starts before the judge, no matter what Parker told all those crew bases, airports, and Congressmen about status quo. You already won "ripe" (until an appeal if necessary) and are soon to get your day in court. What will be your venue for appeal if it is dismissed? I submit you would be done until a JCBA. RR

Do you understand the difference between a crew news and a court room? I agree with you Parker is a flat out liar when talking to employees. Lying to a federal judge is another story. Kind of like what Parker told us about the financial condition of the airline compared to the SEC filings. Yes the AMR employees are in for a big wake up call.

But telling the judge one thing and doing another not good. Shamanski is going to find that out. Remember when he told the judge that usapa would consider the Nicolau during the DJ and now tells the judge that usapa would use or even consider the Nicolau.

The ninth circuit is also available to the west if it is improperly dismissed. But once more dismissed does not resolve the issue. It just delays it. You know the thing the company told a federal judge what they do not want to happen.

 

[Phoenix]

.. improperly dismissed. ..

Please provide a scenario of improper dismissal and for completeness please also provide a scenario of proper dismissal. Simple picture will suffice.. no long lecture needed.

 

[Phoenix]

How much is your TOS narrow body captain get paid? $124/hr? HHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!
for how many YEARS has it been that way?HHHHHHAAAAA!!!!

Every legacy carrier's right seat pays well more than that. You deserve every bit of it. Run along now, your 90 days to a contract is only 1,890 days late! Hey isn't that close to the 1,879 hopelessly unemployed pilots you dragged with you to this merger? Odd.

Oh don't deny it... the whole reason you have donated at the platinum, titanium, polonium or whatever level every year (even as an FO) was so you could abscond with a $124/hr bid. 😀

 

[EastUS1]

It's what you demanded...to be paid less than a commuter pilot. You demanded it and you got it in spades. I know. poor you, it wasnt your fault. the Universe is out to screw you. Of course it was all an enormous waste of money for your feel good temper tantrum as you're NEVER going to get your ridiculous DOH seniority list. Nic in suppository form on its way. I wonder how much worse off the East pilots will fare in the next seniority arbitration...you know, the "final and binding" one? I won't be surprised if some TWA furloughees are slotted higher than the 1999 "new hires" who apparently are unhireable at real airlines.

Personally, I'd staple every last one of those scabs to whatever list is derived. That sounds like fair and equitable treatment to me.

Previously covered: We see displayed here the entire "west thing" in an appropriately termed nutshell = Delusions of Grandeur. 😉