August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Beancounter]

Well, I've got to go. I thought I had some numbers from cash tills on my computer and realized I wrote the info down in a notebook, I now have to find. You may think I'm young, but I think I'm definately showing my age. Later.

Bean

 

[prechilill]

Not sure who put together the table showing a recent East Perm Bid bottom C\O seniority # award vs St Nic. Think the difference approximated 14-15 years difference if my poor memory is accurate .
Bunch new east bid C/O results soon, would be really cool to see that data with this new bid and awaken any potential APA folks sleeping thru the rediculous windfall our west brethren would get if EVER a Nic type bid entertained.

Every west pilot group 2 (or better) C/O. It's about to happen baby!!!!! Lol

 

[fatherabraham]

This SLI is going to be slotting by equipment and status.

APA does not care about the internal order of our seniority list.

My recent conversation with 2 good APA friends from youth revealed they had little to no idea of the disparity I'm referring to. They however clearly understood the potential for a younger AWA pilot leapfrogging 15 years and how that will eventually affect THEM.

FA

 

[fatherabraham]

Every west pilot group 2 (or better) C/O. It's about to happen baby!!!!! Lol

Lill,

Anything could happen , so keep on laughing !!!
Heard the Lotto's up around 400 million.........take that soon to be extra $ and buy lots of tickets. Is that in line with your mentality ???

FA

 

[Phoenix]

I think it repeatedly is brought up, because USAPA seems to have not changed much. The formation of USAPA created a real mess. I agree, adding a third part to M/B is unusual. When in the history of Unions however, has a situation like this come up? The east ventured into new territory when they formed USAPA to discard the Nic.

Bean

The formation of USAPA was not the beginning of the problem. The problem was obviously in ALPA's outsourcing and refusal to maintain responsibility over their own process. But who can blame them for trying to outsource the responsibility along with the process. But frankly ascribing blame does little to nothing in the way of forging a path forward (other than whining to attemp some manipulation).

The majority of pilots have embarked on a path to resolution (not necessarily universal happiness and elation).

 

[Phoenix]

This SLI is going to be slotting by equipment and status.

APA does not care about the internal order of our seniority list.

What happened to the Nic?!

Welcome to the club, again. Where have you been?

 

[Zone5]

East permanent bid results for November are out.


seajay

 

[traderjake]

What happened to the Nic?!

Welcome to the club, again. Where have you been?

It will include (two way) or reflect (three way) the Nic.

I missed you too.

 

[end_of_alpa]

My recent conversation with 2 good APA friends from youth revealed they had little to no idea of the disparity I'm referring to. They however clearly understood the potential for a younger AWA pilot leapfrogging 15 years and how that will eventually affect THEM.

FA

APA and USAPA will negotiate an integrated seniority list nd put it up for a vote before they have to submit it to arbitration...IF THEY WERE SMART.

 

[Reed Richards]

So just to recap, the original complaint:
Plaintiffs newly amended complaint = I. Claim One: Breach of the Duty of Fair Representation
97. Pursuant to the duty of fair representation, USAPA must have a legitimate union purpose to use anything other than the Nicolau Award list to integrate East Pilots and West Pilots.
However, Judge Silver has redefined the complaint. Go figure as to why. I think she knows Harper well.
Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 122 Filed 07/19/13
The exact claim brought by the West Pilots now is:
USAPA breached its [duty of fair representation] because it made a contract that abandons a duty to treat the Nicolau award as final and binding.
What happened to legitimate union purpose?? Oops! That disappears with the new MOU! Judge Silver has moved on. As well as our pilot group, including 97% of the voting members in PHX.
It is noteworthy that a Federal Judge had to redefine the complaint. Looks like Marty has put on pads and a helmet for what will be a simple tennis match.RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Just got a campaign email from Courtney Borman, note the endorsees: "Below are endorsements supporting my candidacy from Todd Fieser, Steve Crimi, DeWitt Ingram, Janet Zweber, Paul DiOrio, Patrick Day, Rick Odato, Randy Sands, Rick Taylor and Scott Theuer." Sorry to drag out the old Cleary punching bag, but I think it is clear that it is exactly his way of doing business these pilots continue to support. If you are happy with McKee and the Gang in CLT (and most of you seem to be) then please cast your vote for Courtney! You will continue to get more of the same. Perhaps Courtney can resurrect the Office location debate. Maybe he can finally get DiOrio back on full flight pay loss. Nice to know we are actually DONE with Cleary. Nice to know we never, ever have to deal with him EVER again, other than by proxy. RR

 

[cleardirect]

Few here continue to raise real questions and debate the current litigation. Most seem relegated to the same rut that somehow the evil intent in the formation of USAPA has any bearing after over 5 years. In fact, even Judge Silver has moved past that, narrowing the issue to USAPA's requirement to use the NIC in in the MOU. She has framed that issue as a new one, thus a trial. And then we have the issue of West getting a seat at the table. I have already asked exactly WHO will represent the West Class at the M/B table? Whether it is LEO, AWAPPA, the 24 who voted against the MOU, or the 500 who are not union members at all--SOMEONE has to be responsible for the product that follows, you know, so LEO will have somebody to sue after a JCBA. Will Judge Silver give a certain party the ability to negotiate with no responsibility for the product? Good luck with that. One more reason the Courts have been loath to give separate party status to union members already represented by a bargaining agent (the exact agent that is also held responsible in a DFR.) RR

Not exactly true. What usapa did 6 years ago forming and operating with the intent of harming the west by avoiding the Nicolu does have bearing. Judge Silver in her last order stated that has been decided.

A group of East Pilots formed a new labor organization known as USAPA. USAPA
was originally, and remains to this day, committed to the combined pilot list being based
primarily on date-of-hire. In other words, USAPA was formed to ensure that the Nicolau
Award not govern the seniority issue.

That statement certainly has bearing on the intent of usapa and the outcome of this trial.

Quick question.

How can usapa tell the court they are willing to negotiate seniority with some unknown west party, yet now you say there is no west party that can sit at THIS negotiating table. Why the confusion? Why not the same people usapa was willing to negotiate with before? The only difference would be the Nicolau is ordered in place.

 

[cleardirect]

The formation of USAPA was not the beginning of the problem. The problem was obviously in ALPA's outsourcing and refusal to maintain responsibility over their own process. But who can blame them for trying to outsource the responsibility along with the process. But frankly ascribing blame does little to nothing in the way of forging a path forward (other than whining to attemp some manipulation).

The majority of pilots have embarked on a path to resolution (not necessarily universal happiness and elation).

A path to resolution? How has that path deviated a single inch from the path you all demanded during negotiations, med or arbitration? You easties did not get what you wanted then and you are not going to get it now. Resolution is not imposing your will on the minority. Take a lesson from history.


BTW doesn't M/B also "outsource" seniority exactly like ALPA? Have you complained to your congressman about that?

 

[cleardirect]

APA and USAPA will negotiate an integrated seniority list nd put it up for a vote before they have to submit it to arbitration...IF THEY WERE SMART.

"If they were smart" That leave out you easties.

 

[Phoenix]

It will include (two way) or reflect (three way) the Nic.

I missed you too.

Thank goodness. I thought you had given up already.