August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Pi brat]

Judge Silver has waded into deep waters: She has F-ed her own two tests for ripeness. Judge Silver properly cited two standards of ripeness that were necessary in her Doc 122 order, but inexplicably she failed to properly apply either of them. She F-ed it up, and when she had the opportunity to readdress it on 15 Aug she simply dug herself deeper.


Silver's Two Tests of Ripeness

1) "a question is fit for decision when it can be decided without considering contingent future events that may or may not occur as anticipated, or indeed may not occur at all.” Cardena v. Anzai, 311 F.3d 929, 934 (9th Cir. 2002).

Silver's Decision on Ripeness (Doc 122): "For the claim the West Pilots are actually making, there are no contingent future events the Court must consider." ​

Fail: On 15 Aug she contradicted herself....​

THE COURT: If there's no merger, what case do you have in front of me. ​

MR. HARPER: Candidly, probably none​

THE COURT: Okay. So then that's at least --candidly, you're saying there's -- if there's no merger, you ​

have no case in front of me; if there is a merger, you have the case..​

2) "a litigant must show that withholding review would result in direct and immediate hardship and would entail more than possible financial loss.” Stormans, Inc. v. Selecky, 586 F.3d 1109, 1126 (9th Cir. 2009) (emphasis added)

FAIL: It is bad enough that Silver speculated about harm that she now admits is an uncertain contingency, but even worse (especially for a judge that should know better) she has taken upon herself a dubious authority to substitute speculative harem to the merger as if it were in fact harm to the Plaintiff. USAPA has a duty to fairly represent its pilots during negotiations, not to protect a merger on behalf of the companies. Protecting the merger from delay is not in any way a responsibility for USAPA, and by definition they cannot be guilty of a responsibility they don't have. Silver should explain this switcheroo.​

FAIL AGAIN: Silver presses ahead based on harm to the airline industry... "USAPA seeks to delay this case. But in the context of airline travel, a delay is never welcomed. The case will continue..."​

​

FAIL A THIRD TIME: In speculating that a delay to the merger is in fact a harm to the plaintiff (doesn't she remember this is a DFR Trial? ), Judge Silver has contradicted herself again by admitting that the MOU/Merger is a positive benefit to the West, the exact opposite of harm. ​

You don't believe me? Then read her rationale for ripeness, in her own words...

Shhh, they won. Pre will be in the A330 with an industry standard contract before the end of the year. Didn't you hear?

 

[snapthis]

This is 2013.

Hint: At some time in the past you folks seemed to be consumed with the notion of integrity. Why do you look forward to a Judge presiding over a trial that by her own words proves she failed to establish it is ripe, being represented by a lawyer that begs the judge to assume the defendant is guilty? Where is your moral outrage? Integrity indeed. 🙂

Are you saying Judge Silver is biased? Are you using that argument for the parade San Francisco Usapians are looking forward to attending?🙂

 

[Pi brat]

The West reps should come out with an update in support of the merger and against the DOJ's action.

To hell with the censors on Woodlawn.

They should hold a press conference. Or make a youTube video.

 

[Claxon]

Now, you American pilots take the strings Elise put on your head, hands and feet and attach them to my fingers.

 

[snapthis]

April 2012 comes to mind for some reason.

So, lets say the Judge finds USAPA failed their DFR, but the merger doesn't go through. Is she going to make it apply anyway. And if so, and you freeze USAPA's money so they can't appeal, what then? Still under the TA and can't use the Nic until a JCBA. What's next?

Serious, not a jab, what's next if there is no merger? Just want a failure of DFR ruling? You think it will apply when the case was about the MOU that doesn't exist absent a merger?

Good questions, Pi.

I'm confident in our legal team and feel good about a favorable outcome. Usapa seems nervous about it's defense which is apparent by it's lack of preparation.

Who knows how she will rule. The rest of your questions can be answered at that point.

I guess we will have to cross that bridge later.

 

[Claxon]

Good questions, Pi.

I'm confident in our legal team and feel good about a favorable outcome.

"We are very comfortable with the position that our attorneys have put us in, .....yada, yada

.............Leonidas is a legal fighting machine."

Almost four years ago, you said the same.

http://leonidas.cact...t&print=1&page=

 

[Claxon]

"I think there's a very small minority on the east that's pushing for the USAPA solution," said McIlvenna, who is chairman of the America West pilot group.
....... said Capt. Tania Bziukiewicz, a spokeswoman for the America West group.
"An in-house union fight like this is not advantageous for the company," Bziukiewicz said.
RR

Pretty funny.

 

[Phoenix]

Are you saying Judge Silver is biased? Are you using that argument for the parade San Francisco Usapians are looking forward to attending? 🙂

Biased? No.

Judge Silver is the one who quoted the necessary two part test for ripeness supporting her decision to proceed to trial... Nobody is responsible for that decision except her. I said she is contradicting herself. Bias is a motive that you are speculating on. She is inconsistent, and I can't see how that is going to help move things along very well.

In her finding of ripeness she cited a necessity for direct and immediate hardship. But last week she refused to accept Pat's reminder to her that she had to find the plaintiff has suffered injury, in order for the plaintiff to have a justicable claim, in order for her to have jurisdiction. She now claims she has no responsibility to find any injury at all (much less direct and immediate) prior to finding ripeness. She now seems intent on performing an exploratory trial to find if there is injury. So she says.

WAIT! The purpose of a DFR trial is not to find mere injury, but to find if there is culpability for an injury in fact. The injury must be claimed by the plaintiff and acknowledged by the judge. The plaintiff has the opportunity at trial to prove guilt/culpability for said injury. Why on earth did she refuse to identify the direct and immediate harm suffered by the plaintiff (as the defense called for). Even so, she demands that Pat show up to trial to defend against an unspoken injury, because as she says the trial is to determine if there is injury, or not.

When is the Judge planning to present the defense with an enumeration of the secret injuries so that the defense can address their accuser's claims? Evidently after the trial, according to the judge.

Judge Silver can't even keep her own advice, but she may be much, much smarter than Judge Wake. 🙂

"a litigant must show that withholding review would result in direct and immediate hardship and would entail more than possible financial loss.” Stormans, Inc. v. Selecky, 586 F.3d 1109, 1126 (9th Cir. 2009) (emphasis added)

MR. SZYMANSKI: Your Honor, there is no injury to the
plaintiffs unless the merger goes forward.
THE COURT: Well, I disagree with you on that. If that's your position as to why or why not there is jurisdiction, then I -- I disagree with you. Whether or not there's injury is a decision to be made after the case is presented and the defense is presented. That doesn't have to do -- or has anything to do whether this Court has Article III jurisdiction of this matter before it.

 

[Claxon]

The West reps should come out with an update in support of the merger and against the DOJ's action.

To hell with the censors on Woodlawn.

Great idea, the west pilot videos have been so mature and effective. I have a suggestion, you can scare the DOJ with the following video you made against USAPA, and put a spell on them. eric auxier and tony anger were awesome in the video.

 

[Claxon]

The West reps should come out with an update in support of the merger and against the DOJ's action.

To hell with the censors on Woodlawn.

Here is another america west pilot production against USAPA you can use to hurt the DOJ's feelings. This one will cost you a lot of crew meals to pay the artists, but it was so effective. Make sure you use the Eminen wanna be, he can threaten to put a knive in the back of the DOJ, like he did USAPA pilots, very mature of him, not.

 

[Phoenix]

Good questions, Pi.

I'm confident in our legal team and feel good about a favorable outcome. Usapa seems nervous about it's defense which is apparent by it's lack of preparation.

Who knows how she will rule. The rest of your questions can be answered at that point.

I guess we will have to cross that bridge later.

You should feel at least as good as you did going into Wake's court.

Marty is begging Silver to make Pat play Plaintiff, Silver says you guys are on first base, and she is pinch hitting popups to shortstop. At the end of the game she will find if there was injury or not, but apparently you must go to the world series to find if there is culpability. Yeah, at least as good as when paying ball in Wake's stadium.

Hey, were the heck is ClearDirect? I am starting to be worried about him.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm confident in our legal team and feel good about a favorable outcome.

That's what I don't get. Why? They have not produced a single thing for you guys. They have stopped a DOH seniority list, but at a terrible price. That's not really winning. Is being the second lowest major airline pilots a real consolation? I had a 10 year west guy on the jumpseat recently and he is still an A320 reserve F/O! What is a guy hired on the same day at SWA making these days? I guess you guys just don't see any other way, just like so many east guys.

I'm really looking at this and trying to see the reason for the excitement. I don't see it. And BTW, I'm not a "usapian", or at least as I think you guys would define it. Everyone has to pick a side, but I question EVERYTHING both sides put out. I see nothing but a continued war of attrition if the AA merger does fail, and I give it about a 40% chance, max.

I wish we had a really smart, really charismatic person out there that could come up with a solution that doesn't have us all losing, but they haven't shown up yet. More of the same.

 

[Claxon]

Old habits are hard to break.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/Documents/Employees%20and%20Compensation/AVG%20WAGE%20-%20Pilots%20and%20Copilots.pdf

 

[N924PS]

That's what I don't get. Why? They have not produced a single thing for you guys. They have stopped a DOH seniority list, but at a terrible price. That's not really winning. Is being the second lowest major airline pilots a real consolation? I had a 10 year west guy on the jumpseat recently and he is still an A320 reserve F/O! What is a guy hired on the same day at SWA making these days? I guess you guys just don't see any other way, just like so many east guys.

I'm really looking at this and trying to see the reason for the excitement. I don't see it. And BTW, I'm not a "usapian", or at least as I think you guys would define it. Everyone has to pick a side, but I question EVERYTHING both sides put out. I see nothing but a continued war of attrition if the AA merger does fail, and I give it about a 40% chance, max.

I wish we had a really smart, really charismatic person out there that could come up with a solution that doesn't have us all losing, but they haven't shown up yet. More of the same.

Other than 6 years of delay since the Nicolau Award was rendered, what has USAPA produced?

They have stopped the Nicolau Award, but also at a terrible price. I would submit that's not really winning either. And a 5 year WN F/o makes more than we make as topped out A320 Captains.

I concur with your assessment if the merger fails. Certainly senior management will continue to allow the pilot seniority issue to keep their pilot labor costs at Regional scales. The war of attrition will take at least 2 or 3 more years to resolve in the courts.

I suggest that should USAPA lose in Silver's court the membership should have a opportunity to vote on going back the the 9th. Perhaps a majority of the pilots have now had enough and are ready to move on.

More likely though it will be as you said....more of the same.

 

[Pi brat]

Other than 6 years of delay since the Nicolau Award was rendered, what has USAPA produced?

That's it. The only real winners in this things have been Parker and our upper management that have lined their pockets.

How many pilots know that CASM was a metric for officer bonuses? And that in the last quarter Kirby was bragging about our ability to control our CASM better than anyone else? You're welcome Mr. Kirby!

But the reason I'm asking the west is that they all seemed to be so fired up about 9/24, while I don't see anything coming it-absent the merger going through. What % chance do you give that happening? I'm afraid you will retire on LOA 93, and that sucks.