August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Phoenix]

Other than 6 years of delay since the Nicolau Award was rendered, what has USAPA produced?

They have stopped the Nicolau Award, but also at a terrible price. I would submit that's not really winning either. And a 5 year WN F/o makes more than we make as topped out A320 Captains.

I concur with your assessment if the merger fails. Certainly senior management will continue to allow the pilot seniority issue to keep their pilot labor costs at Regional scales. The war of attrition will take at least 2 or 3 more years to resolve in the courts.

I suggest that should USAPA lose in Silver's court the membership should have a opportunity to vote on going back the the 9th. Perhaps a majority of the pilots have now had enough and are ready to move on.

More likely though it will be as you said....more of the same.

Well at least you are reasonable about it. A vote about appealing to the 9th if USAPA loses.. Should the plaintiff members be allowed to vote against an appeal?

To save money why don't we just run a raffle. Everyone pays $20 dollars and submits a system seniority list. 100 lists are picked at random and we have a vote like we do for BPR members. We take the top half of lists with the most votes and keep doing runoffs until one gets at least 50% +1.

 

[traderjake]

Your Mom is hot.

 

[N924PS]

That's it. The only real winners in this things have been Parker and our upper management that have lined their pockets.

How many pilots know that CASM was a metric for officer bonuses? And that in the last quarter Kirby was bragging about our ability to control our CASM better than anyone else? You're welcome Mr. Kirby!

But the reason I'm asking the west is that they all seemed to be so fired up about 9/24, while I don't see anything coming it-absent the merger going through. What % chance do you give that happening? I'm afraid you will retire on LOA 93, and that sucks.

I am not optimistic about the merger being approved.

And I am more concerned that you might retire on LOA93! And that would really suck!

 

[N924PS]

We take the top half of lists with the most votes and keep doing runoffs until one gets at least 50% +1.

Sounds a lot like USAPA's usual way of handling an election that doesn't produce their desired result.

 

[Claxon]

"The airlines saw signs during the seven months of talks with Baer’s staff that their proposed deal, which needed his approval, was meeting resistance. Staff discussions with lawyers grew hostile, said a second person familiar with the talks who asked not to be named because the discussions were private.

An offer to give up slots at Reagan National Airport went nowhere. Final meetings with a front office official and with Baer himself were inconclusive, the person said. The agency eventually used the airlines’ own words against them to argue the proposed tie-up would lead to less competition and higher prices for consumers."



AMR-US Airways Merger Faced Antitrust Opposition From the Start article, Bloomberg.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-15/amr-us-airways-merger-faced-antitrust-opposition-from-the-start.html

 

[Pi brat]

And I am more concerned that you might retire on LOA93! And that would really suck!

You know, a couple of years ago I would have considered that an absurdity. Not anymore. If AA-US doesn't go through there are no other major mergers that will happen. Parker has NO incentive to give us more when we are willing to cut each others throats. Look at the laughter over the 3% raise grievance loss. Our own pilots laughing at our loss! Amazing. I know they see it as a USAPA loss, but it is really a pilot loss. We have come to EXPECT the company to violate our contract and get away with it. We've become indifferent.

So when one side or another wins on the SLI, what then? How do we get anything but a bottom feeder contract when we've shown the company what we will do?

My 24 year old daughter just started a new job. I looked over her offer and benefits and it was depressing how bad ours are by comparison. Oh well, maybe my kids will take care of me!

 

[Hate2fly]

Team Tempe will never pay a decent wage. Never have never will! This merger was the only reason money was on the table. No merger-no money.

Hate

 

[Pi brat]

Sounds a lot like USAPA's usual way of handling an election that doesn't produce their desired result.

You do know that USAPA can be voted out, right? Did you know that a group of pilots was looking at doing just that at one time, but it fell apart after one side thought they were "winning?" Did you know that a group of east and west pilots were looking at getting rid of Cleary until Eric Ferguson said that he was "the best thing to happen to the west pilots?"

It goes both ways. Not sure why you and trader only see the east side's failures.

 

[Reed Richards]

Other than 6 years of delay since the Nicolau Award was rendered, what has USAPA produced?

They have stopped the Nicolau Award, but also at a terrible price. I would submit that's not really winning either. And a 5 year WN F/o makes more than we make as topped out A320 Captains.

I concur with your assessment if the merger fails. Certainly senior management will continue to allow the pilot seniority issue to keep their pilot labor costs at Regional scales. The war of attrition will take at least 2 or 3 more years to resolve in the courts.

I suggest that should USAPA lose in Silver's court the membership should have a opportunity to vote on going back the the 9th. Perhaps a majority of the pilots have now had enough and are ready to move on.

More likely though it will be as you said....more of the same.

Although I know you to be anti USAPA and pro ALPA (understood, your view) I agree with you a little on a procedural basis going forward. I especially understand it is time to get paid. But that will not happen. There are quite a few branches in our decision tree ahead. None are good. And as of now, there is no escape by just getting friendly. I don't believe the merger will take place, so I will leave that to others, including Eric Holder and his team. Whatever Judge Silver does there will be appeals to the Ninth and SCOTUS. That tree could branch to both DFR issues AND representation issues, if she chooses to make the West a bargaining agent. And we still have to wait for the Ninth's decision on the DJ. I think that is a slam dunk win, but the Company will appeal to SCOTUS to drag it out. Basically, we are screwed. Better budget for LOA 93, and another 2-3 years of a "just slightly" better off pilot group in PHX telling us how bad we have it and how great their life is. The NMB will NOT let us back in the door until all this merger and seniority stuff is dead and buried. Hey, at least we have attrition, 3 crew bases, no NIC, and some INTL flying on WBs. I am not bragging, rather I am planning accordingly for the long haul to retirement. RR

 

[Phoenix]

Sounds a lot like USAPA's usual way of handling an election that doesn't produce their desired result.

I think we can propose our own humorous solution and laugh about it, or we can b!t©h about what is happening. Either way it will probably turn out the same way, but we won't.

 

[Claxon]

"The airlines saw signs during the seven months of talks with Baer’s staff that their proposed deal, which needed his approval, was meeting resistance. Staff discussions with lawyers grew hostile, said a second person familiar with the talks who asked not to be named because the discussions were private.

An offer to give up slots at Reagan National Airport went nowhere. Final meetings with a front office official and with Baer himself were inconclusive, the person said. The agency eventually used the airlines’ own words against them to argue the proposed tie-up would lead to less competition and higher prices for consumers."



AMR-US Airways Merger Faced Antitrust Opposition From the Start article, Bloomberg.



http://www.bloomberg...-the-start.html

THE COURT: Was this in the offing or was this a
surprise?
MR. SIEGEL: This -- this was a surprise, Your Honor.


THE COURT: Okay. But, I mean, the lawsuit itself,
for example, what I'm asking is -- what -- what surprised me is
is that I expected that I wasn't the only one who was
surprised. As they say, the judge is the last to know; in a
variety of different contexts we hear that.
But I was also surprised to hear the attorney generals
of a variety of states, including Arizona, were jumping on, so
that this must have -- this must not have been really a secret,
or --
MR. SIEGEL: Well, here -- here's how the process was
working, and it's -- it was set forth in some of our papers......blah blah blah but no
answer

 

[Pi brat]

But, I mean, the lawsuit itself,
for example, what I'm asking is -- what -- what surprised me is
is that I expected that I wasn't the only one who was
surprised. As they say, the judge is the last to know; in a
variety of different contexts we hear that.
But I was also surprised to hear the attorney generals
of a variety of states, including Arizona, were jumping on, so
that this must have -- this must not have been really a secret,
or --

"Or had I known that the damn merger might not get approved I wouldn't have stuck my neck out on that whole ripeness thing....."

 

[Claxon]

Now, you American pilots take the strings Elise put on your head, hands and feet and attach them to my fingers.

Fictional account of the CEO's planning;

Lets get these AMR pilots involved, make sure the merger is turned down by the DOJ, then we will re work the MOU. We know the DOJ is going to turn the deal down anyways, lets make them the fall guys. We will give back the slots after we rework the MOU and have the employees finance the deal.

I wanted to use this same strategy in our failed United and Delta bids because it worked so well during the awa, Us Airways merger, but the United and Delta employees blocked my attempt before I could use it.

 

[westcoastflyer]

The US Airways pilots, ESPECIALLY the East pilots, have the most to gain, of any employee group, from this merger being completed. Huge pay raises and contract improvements for the East pilots, and substantial raises for the West pilots as well. Most of the other unions representing AA employees and US employees have come out with very positive statements in support of this merger. The Allied Pilots Association (APA) put out a timely and articulate, well-thought out press release with unwavering support for this merger. Where is the same sort of response from USAPA? They should be all over this, to try to garner support for the merger. Not that USAPA has much credibility anyway, but they could at least try to represent ALL of us in a positive way to help make this merger happen. This is critically important to our careers and our families' well-being!

 

[Beancounter]

The US Airways pilots, ESPECIALLY the East pilots, have the most to gain, of any employee group, from this merger being completed. Huge pay raises and contract improvements for the East pilots, and substantial raises for the West pilots as well. Most of the other unions representing AA employees and US employees have come out with very positive statements in support of this merger. The Allied Pilots Association (APA) put out a timely and articulate, well-thought out press release with unwavering support for this merger. Where is the same sort of response from USAPA? They should be all over this, to try to garner support for the merger. Not that USAPA has much credibility anyway, but they could at least try to represent ALL of us in a positive way to help make this merger happen. This is critically important to our careers and our families' well-being!

All i can say is, yes you are correct.............. sigh.

Bean