August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[EastUS1]

If it were a perfect world and both companies were of equal size, had no furloughes, formed at similar times I could also see your point. We each had an opportunity to present our arguments to a third party.

I couldn't now, nor have ever given, nor will ever concern myself so much as a single hair off a the most ragged rat's arse about what any "third party" ever has to say on what I perceive to be issues of basic morality....Well...my late parents being the notable exception to that rule, since they largely inculcated and instructed said moral code. 🙂

 

[snapthis]

I couldn't now, nor have ever given, nor will ever concern myself so much as a single hair off a the most ragged rat's arse about what any "third party" ever has to say on issues of what I perceive to be basic morality....Well my late aprents being the exception to that rule.

At least we have found common ground at the cooler and the fact our parents were smarter than we thought.

 

[EastUS1]

....and the fact our parents were smarter than we thought.

Indeed. As Samuel Clemens so well put it...something, and I'll likely butcher the attempted quote, so the brief summary being along the lines of how "ignorant" his father earlier seemed, and how much "smarter" his father had gotten by the time he was 20. 🙂

 

[EastUS1]

If it were a perfect world and both companies were of equal size, had no furloughes, formed at similar times....

PS: What the hell does any of that purely circumstantial, and thus, entirely opportunistic BS have to do with decently and properly respecting other tradesmen within the same class and craft?

No matter. Must bail for now and take care of some business. Have a good one All.

 

[Black Swan]

Likewise, I don't hold any position with Leonidas but support their efforts in righting an injustice. Having friends who are East pilots, I know we are worlds apart. Fine, let's fight it out in court and debate it here. Lynyrdskynrd is a Cactus 18er caught up in the Cactus18 net. You've read his posts, he's a moderate. It's a good thing USAPA caught fish like him because many of us would have owned USAPA with a countersuit. Quite frankly, I wish they would have pursued this avenue but for whatever reason they did not.

Someone please give the straight story on lynrdskynrd. Preferably his narrative.

 

[Phoenix]

We agreed to abide by the results prior to the outcome.

Why do west pilots repeat the obvious ad nauseam as if it made any difference?

Yes we all agreed to abide by a policy. We followed it. You followed it. ALPA and Nicolau didn't. That is water under the bridge. You disagree. Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What are we all supposed to do now??!!

Not one of us voted directly for the ALPA policy, but now we have an agreement that we all directly voted for to replace the old agreements with a new agreement, and some of you are still throwing around self righteous indignation about "We all agreed" bull shite but are total hypocrites. 🙂

Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What do you suggest we all do about it.

 

[cleardirect]

Why do west pilots repeat the obvious ad nauseam as if it made any difference?

Yes we all agreed to abide by a policy. We followed it. You followed it. ALPA and Nicolau didn't. That is water under the bridge. You disagree. Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What are we all supposed to do now??!!

Not one of us voted directly for the ALPA policy, but now we have an agreement that we all directly voted for to replace the old agreements with a new agreement, and some of you are still throwing around self righteous indignation about "We all agreed" bull shite but are total hypocrites. 🙂

Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What do you suggest we all do about it.

You easties always try and make the point that we got to vote for usapa and a new merger policy.

Did you or I get to for M/B. Does that make it any more or less valid than ALPA merger policy?

I voted for an MOU that stated M/B is used to integrate us airways and American.

Reading the M/B law it can not be used for mergers before Dec. 2007 or different unions. So when I voted for the MOU it was not to change the way east and west merged.

 

[Phoenix]

You easties always try and make the point that we got to vote for usapa and a new merger policy.

Did you or I get to for M/B. Does that make it any more or less valid than ALPA merger policy?

I voted for an MOU that stated M/B is used to integrate us airways and American.

Reading the M/B law it can not be used for mergers before Dec. 2007 or different unions. So when I voted for the MOU it was not to change the way east and west merged.

You should have read better.

Sure, no one agrees about what it is we agreed to. So... What do you want to do now to move forward?

 

[snapthis]

Why do west pilots repeat the obvious ad nauseam as if it made any difference?

Yes we all agreed to abide by a policy. We followed it. You followed it. ALPA and Nicolau didn't. That is water under the bridge. You disagree. Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What are we all supposed to do now??!!

Not one of us voted directly for the ALPA policy, but now we have an agreement that we all directly voted for to replace the old agreements with a new agreement, and some of you are still throwing around self righteous indignation about "We all agreed" bull shite but are total hypocrites. 🙂

Yeah, there is a dispute. So... What do you suggest we all do about it.

I think Prater had the same paralysis Parker had due to the lack of stones in their shorts.

ALPA failed us by not being decisive and following up the arbitration with presenting the list in a timely manner. We all got stir fried in the Rice bowl which was a total waste of time.

I blame poor leadership.

 

[EastUS1]

You easties always try and make the point that we got to vote for usapa and a new merger policy.

I voted for an MOU that stated M/B is used to integrate us airways and American.

....So when I voted for the MOU it was not to change the way east and west merged.

Brief step back in: Aww!....You'se po', po' 'widdle chile! It's all jess' da' big bad world what's makin' you'se try ta' grabs yourself a decade or more of NON-years-worked magic "seniority" over others what HAS worked 'dem years 'den?...Despite the "we got to vote" part? Ah'se see's now. Sigh! Well 'den....You'se jess' blames da' whole world 'fer you'se personal shortcomings 'den? Sigh!...It's OK widdle baby...It's really all rights..... 🙂

"....So when I voted for the MOU it was not to change the way east and west merged." BTW: Is you'se seeking any "reperations" for being born an apparently, completely hopeless and thus "oppressed" village idiot, while you're at it? 😉 That pathetically vague MOU's about as much a BS carte blanche for undetermined future events as I've ever seen put to printed form....and my unfortunate guess is that thousands will soon regret ever signing on to it, but that's another issue entirely.

PS: Know ANYbody that "voted" for the nic? 😉

 

[AAviator]

AMR pilots revisionist view. "The President of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants (APFA) Laura Glading, stated in an interview with the Fort Worth Star Telegram that the decision to strip the TWA flight attendants of their earned seniority should not have happened when American and TWA merged in 2001. Sitting next to Ms. Glading was US Airways CEO Doug Parker. Ms. Glading said it was “a mistake” and “we really screwed up on that big time.” Despite that admission, APFA has made no effort to correct its mistake." http://interact.stlt...031813090812238 Looking forward to see APA find out how real McCaskill-Bond strips APA pilots of their "unity". You epitomize the true meaning of the "Hitler Youth" that you are. I fully support the former TWA employees.

I'm sure someday USAPA will look back and say "We made a mistake" Right?

A couple of dozen TWA mad dogs left, yet we have all their pilots... AND STL closing

Reno air- a few hundred pilots and no jets left. RNO- closed

Air Cal 4-500 pilots, jets arked.... And wait for it......SNA closed.

BTW, you'd better read up on how MB works. Your theory of how it can be weaponized is fantasy.

 

[AAviator]

You know that history contortion thing never fails to amaze us either, a seniority list we are supposed to use, never put in a JCBA, with rules set by an outside organization, sounds like an internal union dispute to me but hell, 1800 TWA on the AA list?, When PHX gets closed that's a history repeater!

Yea, but there's that pesky "already been arbitrated" elephant in the room.

 

[EastUS1]

A couple of dozen TWA mad dogs left, yet we have all their pilots... AND STL closing

BTW, you'd better read up on how MB works. Your theory of how it can be weaponized is fantasy.

"Your theory of how it can be weaponized is fantasy."....? 😉

Well..greed-soaked, wholly pathetic little jackasses like yourself were sadly needed to make MB even ever happen....You must be so very proud. 🙂 By your latest typically smarmy, smirking commentary: I guess it'll be a learning experience for all concerned here.

 

[AAviator]

You will fit in very well with the eastholes. I just can't wait to deal with yet another group of self entitled assholes.

Entitled to what?

Already covered:

http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20ALPA%20Documents/Lee%20Seham%20Report.pdf

Here's what really happened, and the source:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-108shrg88585/html/CHRG-108shrg88585.htm

Today I want to use my time to offer you a little
background on American's acquisition of TWA's assets during the
early part of 2001 and our efforts to provide jobs to the
20,000 TWA employees who would have otherwise been facing the
liquidation of their company.
It was always our intent to provide jobs to the TWA workers
until their retirement, and we did everything we could to put
our newest employees on par with all other American employees.
In fact, we provided pay and benefits that represent one of the
most generous employee packages in the history of corporate
acquisitions.
Before TWA filed bankruptcy in January of 2001, it
approached the other major U.S. airlines about entering into
some kind of transaction whereby TWA could have continued to
operate. Only American was willing to make a comprehensive
proposal that saved the jobs of many TWA employees.
Under the asset purchase agreement, American voluntarily
agreed to provide employment to all unionized TWA employees.
The bankruptcy court found American's offer to be the only
qualifying offer and approved the asset purchase agreement. The
alternative was liquidation, and the immediate unemployment of
20,000 TWA workers.
Our goal was to successfully integrate the two airlines. We
knew that we would not be successful unless we had the good
will of the TWA employees. From the very beginning, we offered
TWA employees compensation and benefits that rewarded them as
if they had worked their entire career at American.
TWA employees were not brought on as new hires and lost no
pay, benefits, accrued vacation time, or sick leave. We gave
TWA employees full credit for their longevity for these
purposes.
As of January 2002, we put all TWA employees on American's
pay scale. Because TWA pay rates had been significantly lower
than those at American, the majority received a substantial pay
increase.
It is important to note that this was not a merger. As we
began the asset acquisition process, we had longstanding
obligations to the existing workforce at American of more than
100,000 employees and to the contracts negotiated with their
unions.
But the challenge of integrating two workforces goes beyond
matters of benefits and pay. It is the right and the
responsibility of the labor unions that represent our employees
to negotiate on their memberships' behalf on a wide range of
other contract provisions, including seniority and job
protection, and they are at issue today.
This, as you can imagine, was a difficult situation for all
involved. We had competing unions with competing interests, and
ultimately, these matters were resolved as internal union
matters. The company's role in the process was to use our best
efforts to facilitate the seniority integration process, and as
one independent arbitrator ruled, we did just that.
Even though the seniority integrations varied with each
work group--pilots, flight attendants and ground workers--
American met its commitment to provide former TWA employees
full credit for their years of service at TWA for all pay and
benefit purposes.
At the time of this asset acquisition, no one foresaw the
industry's impending financial crisis--a financial crisis that
regrettably has led to the furloughing of so many employees
throughout the industry, including at American.
The ultimate consequences for the TWA employees were not
the result of the integration plan, but rather an economic
downturn that forced layoffs and cutbacks throughout the
industry. The pain has been spread far and wide.
I appreciate the efforts of this Congress to provide aid to
the airline industry and assistance to the tens of thousands of
workers who have lost their jobs. I hope that we can all soon
anticipate better times for the U.S. airline industry and begin
to turn our focus toward recall our fellow workers.
Thank you for your attention, and I would be happy to
address your questions.

 

[snapthis]

Yea, but there's that pesky "already been arbitrated" elephant in the room.

I don't think many of them would recognize a pachyderm if it sat on them.