August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[Freighterguynow]

Wake considered it ripe; Bybee considered it ripe

And they were wrong - Dismissed.

Why the perverse need to keep dredging up AOL's failures?

 

[Claxon]

Obscure? The Company has filed a DJ suit to get legal clarification and has filed an appeal since that clarification did not come at the district level. The clearly outlined their Hobson's Choice that USAPA had placed them in by demanding a seniority solution that had already been found to be a DFR in Addington I until the Ninth dismissed on ripeness.

Are you accusing the Company of lying to a federal judge and also to the Ninth in their appeal? Silver said their claim of harm based on two clear threats from their pilots and or their union was ripe and required judicial relief. Was she lying too?

Yes the company and their attorney Robert Siegel are lying to delay the nmb.

Judge Silver is trying to act like a mediator, not a Judge. Her rulings are very quick for the company and very slow for USAPA.

Was Judge Silver lying when she wrote the following order?


"IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
US Airways, Inc.,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))
No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS
AMENDED JUDGMENT
(to add description of class)
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012."

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway

Looking back at several years do you have any regrets about the decisions your group has made? Today, using DOH, over 100 west pilots could hold W/B captain positions and virtually all your pilots could hold W/B right seat. Instead of one domicile you could choose any of four. The east attrition which is now in full force could have been shared. A united pilot group with the seniority issue behind them would be well on its way to a JCBA.

I consider you an honest and honorable adversary in this dispute. How many of your group are still unwavering in their support of the AOL strategy?

'84

I don't speak for AOL or any west pilot as my opinions are mine and mine alone. That being said, I would never support any illegal or unscrupulous actions by either east or west pilots in their quests for victory. Individual pilot actions on both sides seem to have some of that and I think that is a shame to anyone who is considered a professional and who is entrusted with the lives of countless passengers and crew as part of their job.

On the legal front, I'm not sure there is anything I would recommend the west pilots do differently. The original DFR needed to happen because of the statute of limitations issue and clearly Wake and the jury saw USAPA as having harmed the west in violation of their DFR so there was strong merit there for proceeding with the lawsuit. Appealing to the SCOTUS was and always is a long shot for anyone, but the Ninth is repeatedly overturned and I think Bybee's dissenting opinion was spot on, suitable for framing stuff if you will. So the west had to try to get their ripeness ruling overturned if at all possible.

I have repeated said I don't understand the basis for DFR-II being filed in PHX or anywhere in the Ninth's jurisdiction. NC perhaps, but not in PHX. So I guess that may be regretful, especially if it gets tossed in light of the DOJs attempt to block the merger.

As I told PI yesterday, I would give USAPA's chances of getting the Company to accept a non-NIC list as a number very close to zero without a federal court first deciding the DFR matter. So even if the west had done nothing it is my opinion that the status quo of separate ops and LOS93/C2004 would be here just as it is now. Only USAPA had the power to accelerate the JCBA and that is not their objective in my opinion.

Thanks for the kind words. I hope that answers your questions but let me know if I missed anything.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't speak for AOL or any west pilot as my opinions are mine and mine alone. That being said, I would never support any illegal or unscrupulous actions by either east or west pilots in their quests for victory. Individual pilot actions on both sides seem to have some of that and I think that is a shame to anyone who is considered a professional and who is entrusted with the lives of countless passengers and crew as part of their job.

On the legal front, I'm not sure there is anything I would recommend the west pilots do differently. The original DFR needed to happen because of the statute of limitations issue and clearly Wake and the jury saw USAPA as having harmed the west in violation of their DFR so there was strong merit there for proceeding with the lawsuit. Appealing to the SCOTUS was and always is a long shot for anyone, but the Ninth is repeatedly overturned and I think Bybee's dissenting opinion was spot on, suitable for framing stuff if you will. So the west had to try to get their ripeness ruling overturned if at all possible.

I have repeated said I don't understand the basis for DFR-II being filed in PHX or anywhere in the Ninth's jurisdiction. NC perhaps, but not in PHX. So I guess that may be regretful, especially if it gets tossed in light of the DOJs attempt to block the merger.

As I told PI yesterday, I would give USAPA's chances of getting the Company to accept a non-NIC list as a number very close to zero without a federal court first deciding the DFR matter. So even if the west had done nothing it is my opinion that the status quo of separate ops and LOS93/C2004 would be here just as it is now. Only USAPA had the power to accelerate the JCBA and that is not their objective in my opinion.

Thanks for the kind words. I hope that answers your questions but let me know if I missed anything.

Zero? If the company and USAPA did not already agree to an MOU without the Nic stipulation, then why did you guys sue both USAPA and the company?

 

[CallawayGolf]

There is only one thing the company wants. Its green. That's just business.

Money is important to Management as it should be. That's what they are paid to do. Still, they have a responsibility to run the company and achieve its objectives which include more factors than just money. They have integrated every other workgroup and system, they did offer improvements to the pilots, and they did file the DJ in order to resolve the question that USAPA has been avoiding. Those are important also and the BOD even incentives Management to focus on both financial and operational objectives. So, its not just about bottom line performance. Parker also turns down raises offer by the BOD and keeps his total compensation lower than the BOD is willing to give him. He has more in mind than just his bank account as his actions prove over and over again.

 

[Claxon]

That being said, I would never support any illegal or unscrupulous actions by either east or west pilots in their quests for victory. Individual pilot actions on both sides seem to have some of that and I think that is a shame to anyone who is considered a professional and who is entrusted with the lives of countless passengers and crew as part of their job.

Name one act of the East pilots. west pilots win for illegal acts. You're the new village idiot imho.

 

[Phoenix]

Money is important to Management as it should be. That's what they are paid to do. Still, they have a responsibility to run the company and achieve its objectives which include more factors than just money. They have integrated every other workgroup and system, they did offer improvements to the pilots, and they did file the DJ in order to resolve the question that USAPA has been avoiding. Those are important also and the BOD even incentives Management to focus on both financial and operational objectives. So, its not just about bottom line performance. Parker also turns down raises offer by the BOD and keeps his total compensation lower than the BOD is willing to give him. He has more in mind than just his bank account as his actions prove over and over again.

 

[Claxon]

But the point - or the hypothesis - is that the Company and the west pilots generally want an actionable decision by the courts. The Company desires this so they can integrate Ops an finally have a single workforce, the last piece of the 2005 merger puzzle to complete. The west desires an answer in order to move on from the quagmire, even if it's not the rule of law as they expected it to be. The east comfortably delays getting to an actual answer on the most pressing question about the DFR vis-a-vis the NIC.

The statute of limitations vs. ripeness is a strange animal in this legal matter. There is no question that the west pilots had to file their DFR claim in order to not be prevented from bringing the claim once the JCBA became ratified. Furthermore, Wake considered it ripe; Bybee considered it ripe; Silver considered the Company's DJ ripe so it's not like AOL/Marty was somehow wrong for believing that the matter was ripe for judicial relief. Failure to file would have been a failure from which there may have been no means to recover from. West pilots certainly could not have allowed that to happen if they wanted to ensure their rights were protected under the TA.

"But the point - or the hypothesis?" Ok, professor, when you are done stroking your elitist beard read the rule of law below.

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
US Airways, Inc.,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Don Addington, et al.,
Defendants.
))))))))))
No. CV-10-01570-PHX-ROS
AMENDED JUDGMENT
(to add description of class)
Pursuant to the Court’s resolution of the motions for summary judgment,
IT IS ORDERED Counts I and III of the complaint are dismissed and judgment is
entered in favor of US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. US Airline
Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation
provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. This judgment is binding on the
following class: “All pilots employed by US Airways in September 2008 who were on the
America West seniority list on September 20, 2005.”

DATED this 4th day of December, 2012."

 

[Claxon]

If the merger goes through, then yes, the MOU will indeed count in our lives going forward. When I said the MOU didn't count, I meant as evidence of usapa's ability to bring us something to vote on. Usapa was not the driver of that MOU and we all know it, I think. We did indeed vote for it, but that was only a technicality for all practicle purposes, the only thing usapa really did was allow a little side show on whether or not it actually got to us for the rank and file vote.

If the merger fails, we'll see if usapa is capable of bringing us anything. My money says no.

The only driver for the MOU was Parker and his urge to merge. Absent that he could count on west pilots to obstruct any drive towards any contract. Why west pilots who are convinced they would win a DFR did not get the money and then sue did not push for a contract is strange. Instead Captain Gay and others went to support Doug Parker in injunction hearings.
Johnny Mac and other west pilots tried to turn in east pilots during Parker crew news.
Parker used both groups to provide the lowest paid pilots in the industry. West pilots neutered themselves.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Zero? If the company and USAPA did not already agree to an MOU without the Nic stipulation, then why did you guys sue both USAPA and the company?

LOL. That's a good one Phoenix. Of course I never claimed that the MOU was a CBA/JCBA and, (do I have to say it again?) I never thought that it violated the TA since it can only be used as the foundation/framework for the CBA that would come with a LCC/AMR transaction.

Interesting that you think it's a JCBA and that it was negotiated without incorporating the NIC. So you agree that the DFR-II matter is ripe and believe that Silver and the Ninth would not throw up any ripeness concerns now? I didn't expect you to come out in support of the west's position when I don't line up with them on that one.

 

[dca319]

From what I'm hearing it sounds like Silver just handed USAPA it's ass on a platter. Class certification, depositions tossed, and the company is in.

 

[Phoenix]

LOL. That's a good one Phoenix. Of course I never claimed that the MOU was a CBA/JCBA and, (do I have to say it again?) I never thought that it violated the TA since it can only be used as the foundation/framework for the CBA that would come with a LCC/AMR transaction.

Interesting that you think it's a JCBA and that it was negotiated without incorporating the NIC. So you agree that the DFR-II matter is ripe and believe that Silver and the Ninth would not throw up any ripeness concerns now? I didn't expect you to come out in support of the west's position when I don't line up with them on that one.

I didn't come out and support your position. gee whiz you guys are dense.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Name one act of the East pilots. west pilots win for illegal acts. You're the new village idiot imho.

Might want to check with judge Conrad in NC on that one. Violating status quo and conducting illegal job actions was proven in federal court, or did you forget you are under a permanent injunction?

 

[dca319]

In opposing the class certification motion, USAPA’s only meaningful argument
involves the vote approving the Memorandum of Understanding (“MOU”). According to
USAPA, the MOU was approved by 97.69% of the West Pilots and that approval rate means
certification would be inappropriate. In other words, “[t]he fact that 1,017 West Pilots voted
to approve the MOU raises the question of whether any of those 1,017 have a dispute with
USAPA regarding the Nicolau Award.” (Doc. 135 at 10). This argument cannot be taken
seriously.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I didn't come out and support your position. gee whiz you guys are dense.

Right, my position is different from the west's position on the MOU. You did not come out in favor of my position. We agree on that.