August 2013 Pilot Discussion

[767one]

I appreciate that, but I'm just as guilty as the next guy as to why we are here. At the time, I thought dual ratification after a seniority list was a good idea. It's just in retrospect that I now see how dumb an idea that really was. I'm still funding the west legal fund, and intend to keep doing so. I just think the pointing fingers at each other is really a waste of time, because we all made our bed. No one pilot, east or west has a lock on bad or good behavior. By virtue of greater numbers, it turns out the east had the ability to take this out farther than the west would have(ie usapa), but when I'm forced to think about it, I must admit I played a role in setting it up this way. What can I say then? I did it to myself. Oh well, if I wasn't smart enough to think it through a little farther to begin with, I really don't have any call to start blaming others.

I agree with you. We are all guilty in this mess. It is sad but we have become much like our elected folks in Washington in that rather than solving the problem we are more intent on making the other side the bad guy. On the other hand we have sure made our management and the lawyers very happy. That realization should be a wake up to those on both sides.

All the best,

Bob

 

[crazystnic]

well Said Capt Bob!

 

[electricjet98]

IMO, this is where the train left the tracks. During the USAir/Piedmont merger, the first thing the CEO did was to pay all pilots the same wage......sure, there were differences in opinion about SLI, but we were all treated respectfully and put on a level playing field. I think that being the regional airline that AWA was, not only did the CEO see a chance to screw us all, but the pilots had no clue as to what the word unity meant. SLI could have been worked out over time, but the NIC came out and the hungry greed of the West pilots blinded them since they had never had such an opportunity to leap frog into a "real" airline career, having been the lowest paid pilots in the industry since 1983. breeze

Why am I not surprised that it hasn't occurred to you that if we would have had pay parity from day one, and would have been on a level playing field from day, and had been a united group of pilots at the new USAir, things would be totally different today. Last night, I tried to explain that and may have been a little harsh with the way I put it. I should have said that since the West pilots had never been through a merger before, their lack of experience, and the NIC lottery ticket blinding them, which is understandable, I think the West made a bad choice in demanding that management not give us parity. Don't get me wrong, it's not about the money at that point, it's about gelling as a united group of pilots. My apologizes to you West pilots.....my rum was talking too loudly last night. This all could have gone so much better for us all. But, some guys, TRADER, just can't seem to figure it out. breeze

The Company, MEC's and JNC had all earlier agreed that Pay Parity would result from the completion and ratification of a JCBA. The east's little tantrum and poor strategy of attempting a power-play by pulling out of JNC negotiations is what sentenced you to loa 93. Management and west pilots knew that keeping east pilots on loa 93 was the only way to motivate you to return to the table...and honor your obligations. Sharing the rum with Mr. Dale?

If that were the case, is it not obvious to you that declaring to the company that the "West pilots will be OUTRAGED if the pay parity should occur" is drawing a hard line in the sand? And does it not occur to you that you were trying to FORCE the East into a submission that was not acceptable? Again, that is where the divergence occurred. Your NIC lottery ticket blinded you so much that there was no other option.....you were to be fukin KINGS and would not be denied that leap frog ability. I remind you that for most of the East pilots, ALPA was already on their way off the property. Your militant attitudes just escorted them out the door. breeze

Another very important point concerning the attitudes of the East pilots at this time....we accepted LOA93......a $9.8 billion pay cut over 10 years to preserve our jobs, which as a bottom line includes our seniority and the time served at this company. To have the West draw such a hard line in the sand was not acceptable......we paid our price already and sure as hell weren't going to cave in to your demands. I am not bitter or trying to be accusing here , just trying to shed some light. Again......that is where I thing the train left the tracks. Who's fault....I don't really know......but I do know that Parker played it to the hilt, now possibly having the opportunity to be the CEO of the largest airline in the world. Why? because we were not unified from day one. Good luck guys. breeze

For attempting to claim you're "not bitter or trying to be accusing", you sure seem ready to push the "pay parity" button as the reason that west pilots are the ones to blame in all of this. Once again let me remind you...the east's decision to not participate in JNC negotiations predated the west's resistance to pay parity...a mutually agreed to item that would be included in JNC negotiations. As for "hard lines in the sand" and someone being "forced into submission"...that also predated our resistance to pay parity with the fledgling USAPA's rallying cry of east pilot's majority status as uniquely qualifying them to dictate the value of our seniority and imposing it on us. THAT, my history challenged friend, is where the train went off the tracks!

 

[prechilill]

For attempting to claim you're "not bitter or trying to be accusing", you sure seem ready to push the "pay parity" button as the reason that west pilots are the ones to blame in all of this. Once again let me remind you...the east's decision to not participate in JNC negotiations predated the west's resistance to pay parity...a mutually agreed to item that would be included in JNC negotiations. As for "hard lines in the sand" and someone being "forced into submission"...that also predated our resistance to pay parity with the fledgling USAPA's rallying cry of east pilot's majority status as uniquely qualifying them to dictate the value of our seniority and imposing it on us. THAT, my history challenged friend, is where the train went off the tracks!

The easties never supported pay negotiations which the west was contractually entitled to in 2006. Now these same f-ing babies want us to support them in a pay parity scheme that isn't even a part of any contract- just an invention out of thin air- f- them! Die on the vine is what I say.

Let R57 die on LoA 93- the rest of us will have two decades to make up for the easties inability to negotiate anything. And btw- have you noticed the essence of what these cry babies are asking for...they want pay parity up to our standards... It speaks volumes these east idiots can't even get up to the AWA pay scale negotiated 9 years ago. Must suck being paid like a Mesa pilot without any work rules. Can you say pathetic!?!?!?

 

[EastUS1]

.... the rest of us will have two decades to ..........

Can you say pathetic!?!?!?

While it's my honest hope that all who've many years yet to work in the industry have decent careers (yes; even including you)...well, if you've some fantasy of being sufficiently prescient so's to see two full decades into the future of the world, or even your own life...Whew! Words just fail me.

"Can you say pathetic!?!?!?" might be a bit harsh here, but delusional is certainly appropriate.

 

[EastUS1]

I agree with you. We are all guilty in this mess. It is sad but we have become much like our elected folks in Washington in that rather than solving the problem we are more intent on making the other side the bad guy. On the other hand we have sure made our management and the lawyers very happy. That realization should be a wake up to those on both sides.

Agreed,...most unfortunately in this instance.

 

[usabusdriver]

From your screen name, it sounds like someone mistakenly issued you an A320 type rating.

Have you no clue as to how the thrust levers and autothrust work? If the engines were not producing the demanded CLIMB thrust, what in the world makes you thing TOGA would have made any difference.

(You don't really fly airplanes, do you? No type-rated Airbus pilot would have made such a comment, or suggested such a nonsensical, time-wasting maneuver.)

Hey NYC,

While the intent of the poster may be at question, your response and conclusion perhaps is not entirely correct in a larger context.

If you want to argue a factual statement that an engine has a failure scenario where power is limited, you are correct in stating that any change in fadec demand calling for thrust above that limited power level would not be met.

In the larger context though, Airbus has many subtle automation modes. They have in the past gotten pilots into an undesired mode in a critical phase of flight that ended up being catastrophic.

In the case at point flt 1549. Due to high task loading, most pilots would place the thrust levers into the toga position so as to ensure that there would be no loss of available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement.

In other words, by going to toga the pilot is eliminating ANY possibility that the autothrust system would reduce available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement when highly task saturated as flt 1549.

Subtle, but nonetheless, the OP has a pertinent and appropriate critique while your response would seem to be not the preeminent view concerning placing the thrust levers into the toga detent in such a scenario.

My two hundredths of a dollar's worth.

 

[nevergiveup]

The easties never supported pay negotiations which the west was contractually entitled to in 2006. Now these same f-ing babies want us to support them in a pay parity scheme that isn't even a part of any contract- just an invention out of thin air- f- them! Die on the vine is what I say.

Let R57 die on LoA 93- the rest of us will have two decades to make up for the easties inability to negotiate anything. And btw- have you noticed the essence of what these cry babies are asking for...they want pay parity up to our standards... It speaks volumes these east idiots can't even get up to the AWA pay scale negotiated 9 years ago. Must suck being paid like a Mesa pilot without any work rules. Can you say pathetic!?!?!?

Here's a hankie!

 

[Phoenix]

Hey NYC,

While the intent of the poster may be at question, your response and conclusion perhaps is not entirely correct in a larger context.

If you want to argue a factual statement that an engine has a failure scenario where power is limited, you are correct in stating that any change in fadec demand calling for thrust above that limited power level would not be met.

In the larger context though, Airbus has many subtle automation modes. They have in the past gotten pilots into an undesired mode in a critical phase of flight that ended up being catastrophic.

In the case at point flt 1549. Due to high task loading, most pilots would place the thrust levers into the toga position so as to ensure that there would be no loss of available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement.

In other words, by going to toga the pilot is eliminating ANY possibility that the autothrust system would reduce available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement when highly task saturated as flt 1549.

Subtle, but nonetheless, the OP has a pertinent and appropriate critique while your response would seem to be not the preeminent view concerning placing the thrust levers into the toga detent in such a scenario.

My two hundredths of a dollar's worth.

"Most pilots"... Just useless speculation. If someone proposes that we must study the auto thrust issue for future training then for starters we need to have a record of all the details about the thrust system from beginning to end of the flight. When the training department issues guidance I'll be all ears, along with "most pilots" .

 

[Pi brat]

Hey NYC,

While the intent of the poster may be at question, your response and conclusion perhaps is not entirely correct in a larger context.

If you want to argue a factual statement that an engine has a failure scenario where power is limited, you are correct in stating that any change in fadec demand calling for thrust above that limited power level would not be met.

In the larger context though, Airbus has many subtle automation modes. They have in the past gotten pilots into an undesired mode in a critical phase of flight that ended up being catastrophic.

In the case at point flt 1549. Due to high task loading, most pilots would place the thrust levers into the toga position so as to ensure that there would be no loss of available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement.

In other words, by going to toga the pilot is eliminating ANY possibility that the autothrust system would reduce available thrust through an inadvertent mode selection or engagement when highly task saturated as flt 1549.

Subtle, but nonetheless, the OP has a pertinent and appropriate critique while your response would seem to be not the preeminent view concerning placing the thrust levers into the toga detent in such a scenario.

My two hundredths of a dollar's worth.

The whole TOGA thing is a westie angst, hero envy.

2.2.3.2 Engine Core Damage
Because the fan spins rapidly, the fan blades protect the engine core by centrifugally slinging foreign objects outward into the bypass duct; therefore, most foreign objects that enter the engine inlet strike the fan blades and exit through the bypass duct, causing only fan blade damage. The spinner shape is also designed to deflect foreign objects outward to the bypass duct. However, only foreign objects of a limited size and consistency can be centrifuged or deflected from the engine’s core.
Disassembly and examination of the engines revealed that two LPC IGVs in each engine had fractured because of the bird ingestion and were subsequently ingested into the engine cores, where they initiated secondary damage to the LPC and HPC. Immediately thereafter, the engine cores were incapable of supplying power to the fans; therefore, the fans could no longer rotate and produce sufficient thrust to sustain flight.
In addition, damage to the left engine HPC VGVs resulted in the blockage of most of the airflow through the compressor. The insufficient airflow into the combustor to cool the engine and through the LPT to drive the fan resulted in the loss of left engine power. Although the airflow was not blocked in the right engine as it was in the left engine, the destruction of all of the HPC VGVs and the fracture of several compressor blades caused the loss of directional control of the airflow into the compressor, causing it to stall continuously, with no recovery possible, and, eventually, to lose power.

In summary, the NTSB concludes that both engines were operating normally until they each ingested at least two large birds (weighing about 8 pounds each), one of which was ingested into each engine core, causing mechanical damage that prevented the engines from being able to provide sufficient thrust to sustain flight.

 

[Reed Richards]

Glad to see I missed nothing in the last three days. Prechill continues to prove my theorem that the NIC is indeed seen as dead by the West Class...by telling me how little pay I make. And she misses the point, as do many. If the West Class was so sure (seven years sure now) that the NIC is the list, and that they have a slam dunk DFR if it is not used, then why the litigation BEFORE the pay raise and contract? That is not working, never will. As to punishing us with a wish of lower, non-parity pay, I guess that goes to inexperience, meaning no mergers ever in their history. Even the APA guys realize that no matter how high they sit on the perch, they don't want another group on the property making less. But Parker and the West (with litigation) really stuck it to us. No pay raises for anyone. As to all the kumba ya and pontification on how you or me, or all of us screwed up I will say this. With the knowledge I had at the time I would not have changed a thing about our pursuit of DOH. Not one thing. And I love the guys that come here and say "they saw it coming." I gather some would have thrown the East furloughs under the bus, because that was the only option being presented by the West Class. Same ones that saw the DOJ filing on the way. This entire group, rather 75% total and 98% of the West Class signed on to a new process, and they did not need anonymous posters on a web board to tell them how everyone screwed up. They moved on, only to be slapped by into reality by the DOJ.
Wait, was I also supposed to discuss how Sully and Jeff blew it? Right. RR

 

[traderjake]

And I love the guys that come here and say "they saw it coming."

What ever you say, Luvthe9RR.

 

[Black Swan]

The whole TOGA thing is a westie angst, hero envy.

2.2.3.2 Engine Core Damage
Because the fan spins rapidly, the fan blades protect the engine core by centrifugally slinging foreign objects outward into the bypass duct; therefore, most foreign objects that enter the engine inlet strike the fan blades and exit through the bypass duct, causing only fan blade damage. The spinner shape is also designed to deflect foreign objects outward to the bypass duct. However, only foreign objects of a limited size and consistency can be centrifuged or deflected from the engine’s core.
Disassembly and examination of the engines revealed that two LPC IGVs in each engine had fractured because of the bird ingestion and were subsequently ingested into the engine cores, where they initiated secondary damage to the LPC and HPC. Immediately thereafter, the engine cores were incapable of supplying power to the fans; therefore, the fans could no longer rotate and produce sufficient thrust to sustain flight.
In addition, damage to the left engine HPC VGVs resulted in the blockage of most of the airflow through the compressor. The insufficient airflow into the combustor to cool the engine and through the LPT to drive the fan resulted in the loss of left engine power. Although the airflow was not blocked in the right engine as it was in the left engine, the destruction of all of the HPC VGVs and the fracture of several compressor blades caused the loss of directional control of the airflow into the compressor, causing it to stall continuously, with no recovery possible, and, eventually, to lose power.

In summary, the NTSB concludes that both engines were operating normally until they each ingested at least two large birds (weighing about 8 pounds each), one of which was ingested into each engine core, causing mechanical damage that prevented the engines from being able to provide sufficient thrust to sustain flight.

Those engines were toast. The fact one produced enough juice to keep electrics and hydraulics was a godsend. Perhaps TOGA would have, if it had any effect, shut down what little that was left. Then it would have been a lot worse.
Ask a drag racer if he steps on the pedal when his engine blows. Most people baby an engine when it sputters, backing off it and hoping less stress will prolong the power.

 

[mrbreeze]

For attempting to claim you're "not bitter or trying to be accusing", you sure seem ready to push the "pay parity" button as the reason that west pilots are the ones to blame in all of this. Once again let me remind you...the east's decision to not participate in JNC negotiations predated the west's resistance to pay parity...a mutually agreed to item that would be included in JNC negotiations. As for "hard lines in the sand" and someone being "forced into submission"...that also predated our resistance to pay parity with the fledgling USAPA's rallying cry of east pilot's majority status as uniquely qualifying them to dictate the value of our seniority and imposing it on us. THAT, my history challenged friend, is where the train went off the tracks!

Wrong, my friend. Yes, those things predated your stance against parity. However, the withdrawal by the JNC was in response to the West pilots not being willing to accept anything other than the NIC, and obviously it didn't have to end up being DOH. But you guys were blinded by the NIC. At that time, it was still an internal union problem that could have moved forward if parties would have been willing to talk things out. When you guys told the company that you would be OUTRAGED if the East pilots were given parity, that opened a whole new can of worms, legally. It also got the company involved and the screwing began. That can of worms was a dream come true for a union busting management. That is where the train left the tracks.

 

[mrbreeze]

Those engines were toast. The fact one produced enough juice to keep electrics and hydraulics was a godsend. Perhaps TOGA would have, if it had any effect, shut down what little that was left. Then it would have been a lot worse.
Ask a drag racer if he steps on the pedal when his engine blows. Most people baby an engine when it sputters, backing off it and hoping less stress will prolong the power.

Good point!