CLE dehubbed
- Thread starter LD3
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xUT
Veteran
+1 Good Luck to everyone still in this industry!LD3 said:
sUA & sCO will continue to 'right size' same as sAA & sUS.
B) xUT
xUT
Veteran
Yea I hear you but unions need to be more dynamic with their scope clauses. This industry is dynamic and unions have not adjusted to it yet.Kev3188 said:
Take UA for example; prior to BK the IAM had tethers into buildings, leases, and infrastructure.
IIRC, the IAM, built up guarantees of minimum employees at every station and hub (ALPA & AFA had the same).
Take Indy as one example, the company put everyone on ANP (Absent No Pay) and shut down Indy in a week. Of course the company violated numerous scope clauses but they did it anyway. Eventually, the IAM got those guys N’Gals back pay and the ability to bid the system but the scope clause for a vested interest in Indy was lost.
Now CLE is on the chopping block, if the unions where more dynamic, their contracts would at least mitigate the impact as they knew this was coming.
Problem is that the company has to be dynamic to be competitive. They have to be nimble to change as the market changes. If they can’t, they will fail.
I don’t know how many times that UA management pointed the fingers at WN as the gold standard while not acknowledging the facts that they were the best paid, most unionized in the business. But their contracts were ‘nimble’, that’s what UA management failed to grasp or at least portray.
JMHO, unions need to concentrate on pay and benefits. Trade ‘infrastructure scope’ for seniority rules, layoff bonuses/buy outs, and moving expenses.
Unions need to act like Unions as well. The AFA represents both sCO & sUA but sCO are willing to let people go to the street on the sUA side. Same with the IBT, sCO is hiring off the street and sUA is laying off.
WTF!
I don’t have a dog in this fight anymore but I do have the perspective to see what ‘some’ of the unions problems are.
‘An injury to One is an Injury to All’
When Unions can work together and accept this concept, they will be a formidable foe.
As they are backstabbing each other for dues payers, not so much ‘solidarity’.
Just my 2 Cents…
B) xUT
WorldTraveler
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outstanding.xUT said:
and you are exactly right that WN and it employees have succeeded because the unions have given WN mgmt the tools that the company needs to succeed.
That is all any mgr needs.. and unions in the airline industry are famous for trying to hold onto yesterday while failing to see opportunity that exists today and will only grow tomorrow.
Of course a big part is having mgmt that understands the future and is able to communicate it to union leaders - and for the most part, the US airline industry has had to be kicked and dragged out of the past by a few nimble competitors and alot of government interference.
The whole CLE situation is a failure of mgmt and labor to recognize that the regional carrier industry is at a major inflection point. Government might offer some help but the ability to train enough pilots to fill the number of cockpits that are in airline schedules today is just not there.
Given that network carriers are highly dependent on regional carrier partners including network carrier employees who ground handle regional carriers, the impact will continue to move like a giant wave thru the industry.
Guess you dont realize the TWU Ramp and WN had not buddies right now, they are in mediation and want the right to outsource more.
But WN is the highest paid in the industry, highest percentage of unionized workers and the most consistent profitable airline over the past 30 years.
But WN is the highest paid in the industry, highest percentage of unionized workers and the most consistent profitable airline over the past 30 years.
Kev3188
Veteran
And union members need to act like union members...xUT said:
Remember when people used to pass the (usually proverbial) coffee can around to help out one of the guys that was down on his luck?
How 'bout when there was a layoff, and no one worked OT out of respect?
Two small examples that never happen anymore.
We've been messaged into complacency by a monied interests. Now we're all too busy just "being lucky to have a job" to stand up for what's right.
But your overall point is dead on. Too many milquetoasts elected into leadership spots by a complacent membership when times were okay. Too much decision by FUD when times were bad. Never enough standing shoulder to shoulder.
It's a lot for America's working class to have on its plate.
Luckily, there's still people idealistic/naive/stubborn enough to try and turn the ship around. Like I said in another thread, those are the people that keep me going in the face of things like CLE getting whacked...
Kev3188
Veteran
Exactly!
Explain to me how not working OT helps anyone. I'm serious I don't get it. Is it the principle that the employee cut too many heads and are now shirt staffed, hence the need for OT or is it that by forgoing the marginal pay from working this hours they too are sharing the pain? Unions can talk if solidarity and all but at the end of the day people will do what is best for their families, sometimes even crossing a picket line. Union bosses can take these stands against corporations and principles but will they support the membership when the company folds? Pretty sure of the Boeing employees said that much in round 1 and round 2, that while deficient they thought the offer placed them solidly in the middle class and didn't want to risk losing a good job.
Josh
Josh
No one should rely on OT to make their ends meet.
If people are getting laid off and people are working OT to cover shifts, that means the company is short staffed.
So how would you feel if you got laid off and others are working OT when in reality you shouldnt have been laid off as if there is a steady flow of available OT then the company is understaffed.
And crossing picket line makes you a traitor to your coworkers.
There you go again, you just cant resist an opportunity to try and discredit someone.
Have you ever walked a picket line?
Have you ever seen people treated unfairly?
Why dont you ask any US Ramp or CSA what happened to them in 1992 when they were non-union.
Give you one hint I had three years with the company in maintenance under a CBA, the non-union ramp in CLT had to have 15 years to keep their full time status after the company made their cuts.
Thats just one thing that happened to them.
Since you have a silver spoon in your mouth you will not understand the concept, how comfy is it in your office?
Have you ever been in an open air bucket deicing a plane in frigid weather during a storm?
Have you ever worked the ramp that is has been so cold you can only stay outside for 15 minutes?
Ever crawl into the wing or tail of an aircraft?
Ever change an engine in subfreezing temperature and you cant wear gloves because you need to feel what you are doing yet your hands go numb?
Ever crawl into a bag bin when the temp outside is over 90 degrees?
You really need your eyes opened.
If people are getting laid off and people are working OT to cover shifts, that means the company is short staffed.
So how would you feel if you got laid off and others are working OT when in reality you shouldnt have been laid off as if there is a steady flow of available OT then the company is understaffed.
And crossing picket line makes you a traitor to your coworkers.
There you go again, you just cant resist an opportunity to try and discredit someone.
Have you ever walked a picket line?
Have you ever seen people treated unfairly?
Why dont you ask any US Ramp or CSA what happened to them in 1992 when they were non-union.
Give you one hint I had three years with the company in maintenance under a CBA, the non-union ramp in CLT had to have 15 years to keep their full time status after the company made their cuts.
Thats just one thing that happened to them.
Since you have a silver spoon in your mouth you will not understand the concept, how comfy is it in your office?
Have you ever been in an open air bucket deicing a plane in frigid weather during a storm?
Have you ever worked the ramp that is has been so cold you can only stay outside for 15 minutes?
Ever crawl into the wing or tail of an aircraft?
Ever change an engine in subfreezing temperature and you cant wear gloves because you need to feel what you are doing yet your hands go numb?
Ever crawl into a bag bin when the temp outside is over 90 degrees?
You really need your eyes opened.
How do you know how he is acting?
Were you in CLT last month at the union meeting when he was there?
Did you witness what took place around the US system around Thanksgiving and X-Mas?
Nope you werent, so you dont know what has been going on, now do you?
Were you in CLT last month at the union meeting when he was there?
Did you witness what took place around the US system around Thanksgiving and X-Mas?
Nope you werent, so you dont know what has been going on, now do you?
You've been around awhile, it used to be hard to get an airline job, now it's a piece of cake. When I started back in the seventies I had to know someone, so the newbies don't appreciate what it took to get in. Your right, you have to be old school...700UW said:
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