CLE dehubbed

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, Kev, you do have protection. Look at DL's HR policy which is written... you can make a copy of it (it's actually online if you want to print it at home) and then go file a lawsuit if DL violates its own policy to your detriment and they won't fix it.

No, it's not always someone else, Kev. It's a question of being honest and fair about whatever topic is being discussed. When a WN mechanic has to call people out because someone is using out of date and complete compensation data, then the discussion is not balanced and fair.

When people want to continue repeat statements such as that DL is losing money at NRT despite the fact that DL execs have specifically said they aren't, then the discussion isn't balanced or fair.

I am more than happy to honestly discuss whatever issues you want to discuss... but all of the facts have to be brought to the table.

That happens precious few times on this board.

700,
no one doubts that TW was raped of its best assets over many years and labor ultimately pays the bill for it. But it is equally true that every company makes bad decisions and loses some amount of money.

If it is not labor's job to tell mgmt where to make money, then labor can't be surprised if mgmt ineptitude ultimately overcomes labor.
And it raises the question of what value unions have if mgmt can ruin a company by bad decisions including BK and labor can do nothing to stop it.

 

[737823]

It actually worked out ok, the IAM kept TWA in business for years after they should have shutdown.

Just so I'm clear you are boasting that the IAM gave multiple rounds of concessions only for the majority of their members to later lose their jobs, and the lucky ones lose most of their seniority? You think that "worked out ok"? Get real!
 

The IAM was smart enough to attach the pensions to Engines and Aircraft to ensure the IAM members till this day are still getting their Pensions, and they werent dumped to the PBGC.

Yep as Bob said they abandoned their members and didn't fight for them to risk their secured claims.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Yes, Kev, you do have protection. Look at DL's HR policy which is written...

...In the interest of a "full and balanced discussion," let's remind everyone that some of the very first words of said manual are "can be modified at any time for any reason."

 

[WorldTraveler]

kinda the same way airlines in BK have done, right? and the fact that unions have made very little progress is recovering pay or jobs post BK at nearly all US airlines.

and again, "can be" and "have been" are the real considerations that people consider when determining if being non-union has been a disadvantage relative to their peers.

contracts mean nothing if those who hold one side of them can rip them up and if those who aren't subject to a contract fair as good or better than those who don't have one.

 

[700UW]

Delta can change it HR policy anytime the want.

Do you not understand the concept of being an "Employee at Will"?
 
The only protections they have are State and Federal employment laws.
 
And the IAM spent over $6 million for the FAs and everyone else went to arbitration, and those secured claims went to pay the TWA IAM represented employees and are still being paid.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Yes, I do get the difference.

But I also get - and so DL employees - that what they CAN do and what they ACTUALLY do are two different things.

And more significantly, any employee looks at what they actually have compared to what others have. They could care less about the legal flexibility their employer has if they end up better off than their peers - and that is exactly the case for many DL employees.

They vote and have voted. Not you. Not me

 

[Kev3188]

 

kinda the same way airlines in BK have done, right? and the fact that unions have made very little progress is recovering pay or jobs post BK at nearly all US airlines.

and again, "can be" and "have been" are the real considerations that people consider when determining if being non-union has been a disadvantage relative to their peers.

contracts mean nothing if those who hold one side of them can rip them up and if those who aren't subject to a contract fair as good or better than those who don't have one.

 
If you're honestly trying to equate At Will employment with a legally binding collective bargaining agreement, then we have nothing else to discuss, and should agree to spare this board's bandwidth.

 

[700UW]

Great Labor Relations at DL, remember this?
 
http://www.kafourymcdougal.com/headline-victories/employment-law/wrongful-termination-%E2%80%94-headline-victory-3/
 

Yasuko Ishikawa, 40, a flight attendant since 1992, insisted that she never took drugs and didn’t alter her urine sample.
After she was fired in October 1999 without a chance to appeal, she took her case public, suing the airline and Lab One Inc.
“I was desperate because I know I didn’t do anything wrong,” Ishikawa said Thursday. “Somebody made a mistake, and no one would help me.”
 
Ishikawa was among four flight attendants and a pilot Delta fired in 1999 based on the Lab One tests, which the airline claimed were 100 percent accurate. Labor unions for flight attendants and pilots protest¬ed the firings. The unions have complained to the Federal Aviation Administration and U.S. Transpor¬tation Department about the sci¬entific legitimacy of the validity tests. The government agencies re¬quire testing of millions of trans¬portation workers each year in the name of public safety.
 
Last year, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services or¬dered a review of laboratory testing procedures at all federally certified labs that perform mandated drug tests after the Delta pilot appealed the revocation of his pilot’s license to the FAA.
 

Delta wouldnt help her, she had to hire a lawyer, and ALPA and AFA assisted her.

 

[LD3]

Oh WT, I wish you were more like Loenard and not Sheldon, sarcasm can sometimes be humerous... and you never know, you may end up with a penny...

 

[WorldTraveler]

If you're honestly trying to equate At Will employment with a legally binding collective bargaining agreement, then we have nothing else to discuss, and should agree to spare this board's bandwidth.

that is ABSOLUTELY not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that what is done in practice is worth far more than what a contract says.

If a contract can be run over at will and at will employees are treated better than employees who have a contract (including pay), then that might explain why DL employees don't vote for unions.

I only have access to public areas and non-SIDA breakrooms so I wouldn't know what ""real" DL employees say...

that was joke BTW

 

[700UW]

that is ABSOLUTELY not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that what is done in practice is worth far more than what a contract says.

If a contract can be run over at will and at will employees are treated better than employees who have a contract (including pay), then that might explain why DL employees don't vote for unions.

I only have access to public areas and non-SIDA breakrooms so I wouldn't know what ""real" DL employees say...

that was joke BTW

No its not, an employee at will can be fired at anytime for any reason, Delta can change and probably has a policy anytime they want with no recourse by the employees.
 
I like how you glanced over what happened to the FA at Delta.

 

[737823]

Kev/700

Do non-airline employees receive SIDA badges? Presumably they ride off passes from active employees involved in the campaign?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

No its not, an employee at will can be fired at anytime for any reason, Delta can change and probably has a policy anytime they want with no recourse by the employees.
 
I like how you glanced over what happened to the FA at Delta.

DL employees have to make their own choice.

They have consistently not taken stock in the argument that the company COULD lay them off or that DL has done so more than any other airline.... or else they don't believe unions can do anything about it.

Ask the ones who voted no.
 

Kev/700

Do non-airline employees receive SIDA badges? Presumably they ride off passes from active employees involved in the campaign?

Josh

SIDA badges allow access to operational areas of the airport. Not even all airline employees get a SIDA badge if you work in a non-operational area that does not require aircraft access.

SIDA badges, IIRC, require a 10 year background check. I'm sure there are non-airline and non-contract employees who have them but they aren't given out just because someone wants one.

 

[700UW]

How do you think the vendors who work at the airport get access to secured areas?
 
Host/Marriott employees, janitorial staff, etc... all have SIDA badged to get past security, they might not have ramp access or driving privileges, but they certainly have SIDA badges, and no retirees do not get SIDA badges, you have to work at the airport to have that.
 
And union reps at some airports get SIDA badges as they have to access secured areas to represent their members.
 
In CLT the AGC and GCs have badges.
 
And once again WT, employees at will have no recourse unless Delta breaks a state of Federal Labor law.
 
And glad to see you are still ignoring the DL FA and Pilot who were fired.
 
And I see you are speaking for Delta employees again, when did they elect or hire you to be their spokesman?
 
Was it in a breakroom or galley?

 

[WorldTraveler]

which is why I noted non-airline and non-contract employees... since contractors have them too
 

SIDA badges, IIRC, require a 10 year background check. I'm sure there are non-airline and non-contract employees who have them but they aren't given out just because someone wants one.

take up your fight with the employees of DL who voted "no" regarding further unionization.

They don't largely frequent this board.

There was a DL pilot who was fired and who had a contract? WHAT?