Company's Offer

[twufleetman]

Well now that the charts are out we can see who has TA'd the articles and who hasn't. Time might tell who is right or wrong. Since there is separate negotiations we could end up with a separate contract dates. It's a safe bet that if one group was to improve a contract that the other would pick it up because that would be the deal done before it would be signed to move one on. That would be the only way to get one through without the other. We should be adding if economic changes are for the better the a chart rate increase would apply.

Hang in there BIGDAWG. Your dealing with swelled up brains.

 

[twufleetman]

Why would you get it, aren't these negotiations seperate?

Because it is always something discussed in negotiations when one group is negotiating separate and TA'ing articles at different times. It's a safety net. The same thing would happen with articles that applicable to all groups. IE: medical, pensions, seniority. etc. If you were to accept to sign it would be with that rule.

 

[twufleetman]

No scare intended,,,, as you say, (and it seems you have some sense here) we are the best Amt's there are... I believe most Amt's will not 'jump' on the insult of an offer.. and, it is an insult. I'm sure the unskilled would love it, just so they don't lose anything... As I said, it's this mentality that has resulted in one of the worst agreements out there for Amt's. Now, go back under the rock with your bud. And, speaking of rocks, we don't, we're held to a higher standard with Dot testing, heard of it?

I would have to say it was the worst agreement for us all. As far as being unskilled, you couldn't do my job without training and the time you put into your training is why you do make a higher salary. Personally I didn't want to work 15 or more yrs on midnights so I made my choice. So just because I'm in the fleet world, I do not love it. The deal sucks. I can take it or leave it. It's not much money. An insult?? It's around $7,500 or so and no changes in our benefits and pensions. I know that means something to our retirees. I wouldn't have been surprised if they had wanted money back and that would have been an insult. It might make since to put in an option to open earlier if economics improve. Better to have a contract if this whole thing craps out. Just an opinion. Like I said if this is the best offer from the company and it's going to go on for months and months. I'd rather be able to vote on it myself and maybe battle again in a year and half from now. We would not be the big losers if this craps out anyway. It's not my job they are looking to rape. My rock is very comfortable thank you and DOT testing ?? You know how many AMT's that I know have lost their jobs due to drugs and alcohol. Don't put yourself on any pedestal my friend. We all can have that problem. I've been around for over 25yrs at this company and have friends in all tile groups. I respect all groups around the system.

 

[AMFAMAN]

It's not much money. An insult?? It's around $7,500 or so and no changes in our benefits and pensions.

How do you figure $7,500? Jim Little is on record that OT does not count towards the lump sum. It is based on your 2080 pensionable hours, nothing more. For a mechanic, it's less than $6,000 total between the two payments. Considering maintenance has provided this company around $2 billion in savings and third party work, the offer is simply an insult to mechanics. We were told to give the company the savings, and the buffet table will be ours; now it doesn't even qualify as a cheese line.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

One thing is as SURE, as.....the Sun will rise up from the East.

IF this "thing" is put on the table for a vote,................It WILL Pass, due to the locals (both FSC and AMT's) that have the Largest amount of Members !!

Anyone care to speculate..WHICH locals they are ??????

C'mon,.......you KNOW,.......which ones !!!

(lone exception...AFW)

 

[frontline]

How do you figure $7,500? Jim Little is on record that OT does not count towards the lump sum. It is based on your 2080 pensionable hours, nothing more. For a mechanic, it's less than $6,000 total between the two payments. Considering maintenance has provided this company around $2 billion in savings and third party work, the offer is simply an insult to mechanics. We were told to give the company the savings, and the buffet table will be ours; now it doesn't even qualify as a cheese line.

I wish we had the chance to take some of that $2 billion earlier, because now it's all gone to OPEC.

I'm "on the fence" on this. Do we really think we can do better? In this environment? My worry is that our leaders are thinking very short-term. I'd love a big payout now as much as the next guy, but not if it comes back to bite me in the ass in three years with a 30% wage reduction because AA went bust. Or lose my job entirely. I'm not gaga over AA, but I know it's worse at our competitors, and I sure as hell don't want to work for any of them.

 

[TWU informer]

I wish we had the chance to take some of that $2 billion earlier, because now it's all gone to OPEC.

I'm "on the fence" on this. Do we really think we can do better? In this environment? My worry is that our leaders are thinking very short-term. I'd love a big payout now as much as the next guy, but not if it comes back to bite me in the ass in three years with a 30% wage reduction because AA went bust. Or lose my job entirely. I'm not gaga over AA, but I know it's worse at our competitors, and I sure as hell don't want to work for any of them.

Where was the TWU on the 2006 early opener via Jim Little's without firther ratification agreement of 2003?

TWU could have opened negotiations 2 years ago and sit on their ass like good lapdogs.

 

[Man of the People]

Where was the TWU on the 2006 early opener via Jim Little's without firther ratification agreement of 2003?

TWU could have opened negotiations 2 years ago and sit on their ass like good lapdogs.

I heard that the TWU Dispatchers opened their negotiations in 2006. This was during a period where the company was making a profit. So if this company was so willing to reward the TWU for its efforts/concessions, why don't the Dispatchers have a signed contract? You know why? AA Greed. :down:

 

[American Air Surf]

Where was the TWU on the 2006 early opener via Jim Little's without firther ratification agreement of 2003?

TWU could have opened negotiations 2 years ago and sit on their ass like good lapdogs.

The day we /s/ a contract, our protection(s) under "Section 1113 Protection", and the TWU being on the "Creditor's List", goes out the F**king window. Unless, another letter is /s/ as to this effect. See the attachment.

Secondly, this would be the best time to get rid of the TWU, and have cards /s/ for a independent union. There is no rush for negotiations right now. We have all sufferd for 6 years, and what is being offered will not erase that pain. Thirdly, the economics, Oil, housing aren't going to get any better for YEARS. For get any profit sharing. Fourthly, we won't get any meaningful relief, in any contract until, a major carrier goes down for the count- We are now in the game of Last-Man-Standing...

 

[American Air Surf]

Where was the TWU on the 2006 early opener via Jim Little's without firther ratification agreement of 2003?

TWU could have opened negotiations 2 years ago and sit on their ass like good lapdogs.

The day we /s/ a contract, our protection(s) under "Section 1113 Protection", and the TWU being on the "Creditor's List", goes out the F**king window. Unless, another letter is /s/ as to this effect. See the attachment.

Secondly, this would be the best time to get rid of the TWU, and have cards /s/ for a independent union. There is no rush for negotiations right now. We have all sufferd for 6 years, and what is being offered will not erase that pain. Thirdly, the economics, Oil, housing aren't going to get any better for YEARS. For get any profit sharing. Fourthly, we won't get any meaningful relief, in any contract until, a major carrier goes down for the count- We are now in the game of Last-Man-Standing...

 

[Bob Owens]

Sorry, MCI, but the numbers I posted include fuel and food. Read the link I provided.

Excluding those two items, inflation ran about 2.4% nationally for 2007.

We can certainly disagree about ideas and opinions, but can we at least agree on the BLS statistics as published by the BLS?

No, as far as going by them. The BLS statistics understate inflation thanks to the "value index" they started using a few years back, non-inclusion of medical costs and they dont include property taxes.

The BLS has political and economic reasons for understating inflation , politically its always better to show low inflation and since SSI is pegged to inflation it saves the government money by claiming that inflation is lower than it is.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA lost money last quarter and AMR lost money last quarter. AA doesn't break out Cargo expenses (only cargo revenue) so it's impossible to tell whether cargo was profitable.

AA "lost money"? Lets see, the have paid off over $10 billion in debt and have $5billion more in cash now than they did in 2003. Sounds to me like they had to take in at least $15billion more than they spent over the last 5 years for an averge of $3 billion a year.


European Airlines, and airlines that operate in Europe have been paying $4 or more a gallon for years, they are still able to operate and provide their employees with livable wages. Its not unreasonable for us to expect the same.

 

[Bob Owens]

No argument there. Premium is running about $4.39 in my part of LA; filling up the Escalade costs about $100. Good thing I don't drive it much.

The CPI for 2008 is likely to be higher than 2007 because of the explosion in fuel prices.

I do the grocery shopping, and milk is very expensive. So is ice cream. And cheese. Etc. Our monthly grocery budget is up about 20% since 2003.

I don't think you sound like an alarmist - the price of everything touched by fuel is high and likely to go higher.

Exactly, but the BLS includes things that we dont consume on a regular basis. For instance the computer I'm banging on at the moment was bought 8 years ago, it cost me $500. If I wanted to replace it today I'd would have to buy a higher performance model because they dont even sell anything like this today and it would probably cost me around the same. So the cost for technology has not increased, it would still cost me $500 to get on the Internet and type this post, however a few years ago the BLS added a Value index to technology so the computer would actually show up as having gone down in price, even though it costs the same for what I need. Basically the BLS is using marketing tactics to figure out inflation, "Sure your paying more but you are getting more whether or not you need it." So things like computers, which I dont buy every year, help water down increased costs for food, fuel, and taxes which consume all my income. The computer (which I bought 8 years ago) shows up as a negative to offset the increased cost of milk that I buy twice a week.

 

[Bob Owens]

AA would love to have a reason to contract out some work. TWU and American has kept all of that overseas work here and I don't see that happening for ever.

Well thats not entirely true. The fact is prior to 9-11 the TWU allowed AA to contract out more work, some of it overseas, than any other legacy carrier. AA work done overseas by foreigners, not TWU members, including A checks and SIC'S is work done outside of our contract, therefore contracted out from the TWU but it was counted as "in house".

But in 2003, it was your group that said just lay off our members and keep my money

Yes because AA said either 25% in pay and benifit cuts or they would eliminate 2500 jobs. So they got the 25% and they eliminated 4000 jobs instead. Hmmm. I think we should have kept the pay, and the 1500 extra jobs that were lost.

I hope anyone can get what they can and will never wish any group ill will. If the Maint group votes not to let the members decide on the last package that is fine with me. I just believe that the members should see the whole package and decide on their own.

I agree we should see the whole package and not just a "summary". In addition to highlighting what the company is offering they should be specific as to what the company is asking for. Sorry but an X or TA doesnt tell me much and for the last 28 years I've always been told that the language is just as important as the numbers. The TWUs track record has been that the language usually gives the company a very good return on the numbers. Chances are by grabbing for the signing bonuses and scraps of the things they took away-some of which bit the company in the ass) we will be giving up even more through language changes.

I know our group will let us decide and I wish you luck getting more. If, which I doubt, there ended up a chart rate too, we would still get it. So roll those dice baby. I really do hope it works. And if it gets turned down in our group, I'm ok with that too. It's not much, but it is money that might not be there later and like I said I want to see the whole package before I decide anything.

Thats never happened before, and what would to expect when they wont even tell you what you are asking for?

 

[Bob Owens]

Does your brain hurt when you think? I have never said that I am in favor with all that TWU does. I wish we could vote for the ATD officers and not the convention. I do wish sometimes they would grow some balls. But brother AMFA wow. My friends at NW would love to redo that vote. Contracting out work was the first agenda. Great for your groups. I would rather work with what we have. I am just putting out some facts for once and people can make their own opinion and I might just be able to add some other insight instead of everything negative and usually wrong info.

ATD officers are all appointed.