Company's Offer

[Bob Owens]

IMO, there won't be a counter to the counter, mediation is next. It will last as long as it takes for things to turn around, if they ever do. In the meantime most likely there will be wholesale parking, closing of small stations, RIFs, reduced schedules and workloads.

And if we say yes you think that wont happen? Let me remind you that in 2003 the company said 25% or 2500 jobs, when the committee responded take the 2500 jobs the company claimed they couldnt operate that way, withdrew the offere and demanded the 25%. They got the 25% and reduced headcount by 4000 jobs. If we say yes we wont say anybody.

If the economic turn around doesn't happen soon enough, AA will burn through the cash eventually filing BK. All our pensions will be turned over to PBGC. Sky is falling scenario? Maybe, but entriely possible.

Arpey says its not even a consideration.

I'm not advocating or promoting the offer, just being real. Unfortunately, upper management poisened the well of good will and another substandard agreements with their multimillion dollar bonuses and mismanagement of our great company.

Poisened or not, good will doesnt pay the bills.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have no idea. Perhaps the management team should be fired for their failure to turn the ship around. After all, they stole from you and your co-workers in 2003 and then gave the money (and then some) to the oil companies. They sold tickets at low fares ever since September 14, 2001. Fares that haven't generated a dollar of net profit (in the aggregate) for the past five years or in the 6.5 years since September 11, 2001. And then they took their variable comp for three years in a row even though the company hasn't shown a profit. All while giving the rank and file NOTHING* in return.

*Well, not NOTHING, as we've covered that before - but since a majority of the rank and file is dissatisfied with the amount received compared to what management has received, we'll just stick with the inaccurate NOTHING for purposes of discussion.

Its "nothing". ZERO raise for two years puts our buying power that much further behind inflation. Plus we dont even know what all the concessions are. Some have been let out but not all of them such as "automatically working" all holidays and company , not seniority based crew chief selection.

Amazing how all six legacy airlines are run by incompetent morons. None of them have shown an aggregate profit for the past five years (or in the 6.5 years since September 11, 2001). What are the odds that six multi-billion companies dominating their industry would all be run by incompetent morons for so many years?

You have a point. I'm sure you will correct me if my numbers arent exact but I recall a figure of 15 to 1. For every dollar spent on an airline ticket the industry generates $15 in economic activity. Like I said, this industry exists to make others profits.

IMO, such a view lacks pragmatism, but everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Why not just jump off a bridge? You're going to end up dead anyway?

 

[The Goose]

Its "nothing". ZERO raise for two years puts our buying power that much further behind inflation. Plus we dont even know what all the concessions are. Some have been let out but not all of them such as "automatically working" all holidays and company , not seniority based crew chief selection.



You have a point. I'm sure you will correct me if my numbers arent exact but I recall a figure of 15 to 1. For every dollar spent on an airline ticket the industry generates $15 in economic activity. Like I said, this industry exists to make others profits.




Why not just jump off a bridge? You're going to end up dead anyway?

Bob:

Crew chiefs not selected by seniority?

On the surface that sounds great. I have one on the opposite shift that ... well, to call this clown stupid would be a major compliment to him. I would definitely like to ensure there are never again any of his type placed in a position with the slightest bit of authority, but had it not been for his seniority, he'd never have been considered for the position.

The downside to that is the company is no better at their picks, that is, if supervisors are any gage of the to-be-applied criteria.

Oh, well - where else could we go for 8+ hours, be as well entertained as we are by the so-called management and their follies, and get paid for it?

BTW - I'll pass on the bridge.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Anybody considering accepting this endentured servitude(slavery) contract needs to be put in a mental hospital. It is totally unacceptable and an insult to the AMT's of American Airlines. In 1995, the company was playing the Boo Hoo Hoo game and look what happened. Seven years of record profits followed and we were stuck with six year "scam" of a contract. Please,don't let history repeat itself!

 

[leveralone]

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YOU MUST BE A COMPANY PUPPET TRYING TO SELL US ON THIS DEAL??? I DON'T CARE IF YOU GAVE US 2001 CONTRACT I WOULD STILL VOTE "NO"!!! "WE SAVED THE COMPANY??? NOT MANAGEMENT! THEY ARE RUNNING IT INTO THE GROUND...

I second that!

 

[frontline]

iluvaa: I've been lurking here for a while and, if you remember, there was a thread about execs not taking the bonuses. Turned out not to be true, but lots of people railed on them anyway. I hate hypocrisy, and it makes us less credible. Let's stay focused on making some gains for ourselves.

 

[iluvaa]

iluvaa: I've been lurking here for a while and, if you remember, there was a thread about execs not taking the bonuses. Turned out not to be true, but lots of people railed on them anyway. I hate hypocrisy, and it makes us less credible. Let's stay focused on making some gains for ourselves. they railed on them them because they have proven that they will take them and they did

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob:

Crew chiefs not selected by seniority?

On the surface that sounds great. I have one on the opposite shift that ... well, to call this clown stupid would be a major compliment to him. I would definitely like to ensure there are never again any of his type placed in a position with the slightest bit of authority, but had it not been for his seniority, he'd never have been considered for the position.

The downside to that is the company is no better at their picks, that is, if supervisors are any gage of the to-be-applied criteria.

Oh, well - where else could we go for 8+ hours, be as well entertained as we are by the so-called management and their follies, and get paid for it?

The current process is fair and just as effective as what management is proposing, the fact is Seniority gives the guy first shot, if he doesnt perform the company can send him back to the floor, its rarely done but I have seen it happen. The problem with crew chiefs is not the selection process, plenty of senior people who would make great crew chiefs pass on the opportunity because it doesnt pay enough. Accepting crew chief limits your choices as far as shifts, days off etc and management doesnt do their job at weeding out those who really cant handle the job.


Heard another rumor about concessions the company snuck in but not revealed by the TWU.

Mandatory transfer acceptance if an employee puts in a transfer to another station and its granted the employee must accept the bid or be terminated. Perhaps that applies to layoffs as well.

Lets not forget the best one. All urinals will be removed since if we accept this deal we will have no business standing up when we pee.

 

[Mr.Robot-tow]

I was informed last night that their will be a TWU President's council meeting of all Presidents from around the system on Thursday in Dallas.Where will be held I do not know,might be at the ATD in Irvine.Stay tune for this one is gonna be a razzle dazzle of a meeting much to come to grips with,federal mediation request,lay-off's looming.

 

[FWAAA]

Its "nothing". ZERO raise for two years puts our buying power that much further behind inflation. Plus we dont even know what all the concessions are. Some have been let out but not all of them such as "automatically working" all holidays and company , not seniority based crew chief selection.

Well, I think it's dishonest to claim you got nothing when you actually received (in the aggregate) in-the-money options on 35 million shares five years ago. Worthless today, but worth over $1.2 billion in January, 2007. Plus the $800 pseudo-profit sharing gift for 2007 even though AA didn't earn enough to trigger the profit sharing plan your worthless union negotiated. Plus the measly 7.7% aggregate raises you received since the concessions were imposed.

You're dissatisfied with the amount you received, but as I said, it's dishonest to claim you got nothing. In your view (which I share), you didn't get enough.

Too bad your worthless union didn't extract a larger potential payoff in exchange for your massive sacrifices five years ago. That was the biggest failure over which your union (as well as the APA and the APFA) has presided. $8.2 billion of concessions should have never been granted for so little potential upside.

You have a point.

Thank you. If only AA or only one other legacy carrier had spent the last 80 months suffering severe losses, then management failure would be solely to blame. Management has made real mistakes, but management incompetence isn't to blame for $130/bbl oil or revenues that just can't keep up. Nor is management to blame for the root cause of the industry's financial problems that began 80 months ago.

I'm sure you will correct me if my numbers arent exact but I recall a figure of 15 to 1. For every dollar spent on an airline ticket the industry generates $15 in economic activity. Like I said, this industry exists to make others profits.

Sounds reasonable. No arguments from me. Long-term, if fuel stays extremely expensive, perhaps Vegas and Disney end up subsidizing tickets the way those Caribbean islands do. Either that or they face lotsa empty hotel rooms. In just MCO and LAS, many billions of dollars were invested when oil was cheap and ticket prices were inconsequential. Plenty of other places as well where tourism dollars are very important, like SFO and NYC.

 

[The Goose]

The current process is fair and just as effective as what management is proposing, the fact is Seniority gives the guy first shot, if he doesnt perform the company can send him back to the floor, its rarely done but I have seen it happen. The problem with crew chiefs is not the selection process, plenty of senior people who would make great crew chiefs pass on the opportunity because it doesnt pay enough. Accepting crew chief limits your choices as far as shifts, days off etc and management doesnt do their job at weeding out those who really cant handle the job.


Heard another rumor about concessions the company snuck in but not revealed by the TWU.

Mandatory transfer acceptance if an employee puts in a transfer to another station and its granted the employee must accept the bid or be terminated. Perhaps that applies to layoffs as well.

Lets not forget the best one. All urinals will be removed since if we accept this deal we will have no business standing up when we pee.

Bob, you don't know the individual I'm talking about.

This guy was already a crew chief once and was removed due to incompetence. A year later, he bid on another opening and was selected again. Anyone in their right mind would have barred this clown from bidding a crew chief's position again, either in this life or the next.

The mandatory transfer to another station issue - why is that an issue? If you don't want to go, don't sign up - that sounds like putting in a transfer for leverage of some sort or just to "show them" and getting "caught", if you will.

Layoffs and the subsequent return to duty, however, had better be a different story and, if it follows the transfer language you outlined, is totally unacceptable.

I have no idea what is in the offer as nothing but the most general of terms were let out to be seen by the great unwashed. I asked for details and got a rather generic BS answer /s/ (not from) Dennis Birdchitte that told me to go read something that wasn't there.

 

[Joe Patroni]

Bob, you don't know the individual I'm talking about.

This guy was already a crew chief once and was removed due to incompetence. A year later, he bid on another opening and was selected again. Anyone in their right mind would have barred this clown from bidding a crew chief's position again, either in this life or the next.

The mandatory transfer to another station issue - why is that an issue? If you don't want to go, don't sign up - that sounds like putting in a transfer for leverage of some sort or just to "show them" and getting "caught", if you will.

Layoffs and the subsequent return to duty, however, had better be a different story and, if it follows the transfer language you outlined, is totally unacceptable.

I have no idea what is in the offer as nothing but the most general of terms were let out to be seen by the great unwashed. I asked for details and got a rather generic BS answer /s/ (not from) Dennis Birdchitte that told me to go read something that wasn't there.

Promoted, removed, and promoted again? Is that all? I know a guy who has been promoted and removed as crew chief 4 times. Guess what? He is a crew chief again.

 

[The Goose]

Promoted, removed, and promoted again? Is that all? I know a guy who has been promoted and removed as crew chief 4 times. Guess what? He is a crew chief again.

That goes to show us - no matter how rough we think we've got it, there's always someone else worse off.

Dear God, man - how does this fit into the business the TWU says it wants to build by continuing to return the incompetent to a bid position? On one hand, they're bought and paid for by the company and do us little if any good in the areas that count. On the other, they consider seniority an end-all qualification with no though as to the individual's ability to do a given job, really dumping that person's load on somebody else.

Good work if you can get it, I guess ...

 

[Joe Patroni]

That goes to show us - no matter how rough we think we've got it, there's always someone else worse off.

Dear God, man - how does this fit into the business the TWU says it wants to build by continuing to return the incompetent to a bid position? On one hand, they're bought and paid for by the company and do us little if any good in the areas that count. On the other, they consider seniority an end-all qualification with no though as to the individual's ability to do a given job, really dumping that person's load on somebody else.

Good work if you can get it, I guess ...

When seniority is the only qualification needed to get the job, you get what you get.

 

[eolesen]

twu informer is right you are nothing but people hired by the company to come on here and sell there crap.

And space aliens implanted the Jesus story into our heads as brainwashing...

if the execs didnt take there bonuses I think there might be a different attitude, but they did so guess what they sunk the ship not us.

Another load of shite. Y'all have been blaming management for all your ills for the 20+ years I've been following airlines....

You anti worker boys on here (fwaa, frequent fly) we're saying just a few months ago that the bonuses were in there contract and we should have negotiated a better contract for ourselves. Now your saying we should be realistic about what we want. You talk out of both sides of your butt.

Like it or not, lawyers and bankers make more than store cashiers because there are fewer people qualified to do the first two jobs; there's no shortage of people qualified to be a cashier.

When there are fewer positions than there are people with the required skills, you only have so much bargaining power. That's a fact. And your contract reflects that.

When the long-expected exodus of greybeards occurs, perhaps then the skilled AMT's will have leverage. Right now, they don't. When AA isn't grounding 50+ aircraft over the next 12 months, the pilots and flight attendants will have some leverage. Right now, they don't.