Consequences Of Section 1113

N628AU said:
No, it is not. Ask any company in America, union or not, and the "wages and benefits" line is a big deal. Companies get hit with double digit percentage increases in health care costs every year. How long can they go on absorbing that kind of hit? When does it get to the point where they ask do we pass along costs, decline to give out pay raises, stop expanding, or worst of all, fire Joe to pay for benefits for Sally, Jim, and Bob?

Most labor actions today are not over pay rates, but benefits costs. Look at the Southern California Supermarket strike. The companies were still paying for the lion's share of benefits costs, while paying checkers to a top of scale pay rate of $20 per hour, plus time and half on weekends, shift differentials, and double time on holidays. A checker could make $60 an hour working a Sunday holiday.

A lot of people keep talking about overtime being posted constantly, they should just hire or recall people and pay them straight time to save money. No matter how grossly mismanaged a company is, they know exactly where to the overtime pay/benefit cost line is, and when it is cheaper to cross it.
[post="169778"][/post]​
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Yes it is intellectually dishonest. Perhaps you've overlooked the statement of the facts are what they are, but cherry-picking ( including or excluding data and/or qualifiers selectively to strengthen one's own argument while making one's opponent's seem less reasonable ) is intellectually dishonest. Whether you agree with actual compensation is a different debate. I was responding to BB's astute observation of how some in some groups are apt to demonize another through distorted heresay.
 
E-TRONS said:
Right before your eyes this company is headed on the road that leads to the likes of Valujet. Everything on the cheap. Everything outsourced. And you know the rest of that story.
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The rest of the story? Hummm, do the mean about now Valuejet transformed into one of the leading LCC's? How they turned themselves around to become a good company? How they are one of the VERY FEW carriers to show consistant profits? They have 77 new 717's and a few 737's with close to 100 more coming. Very sucessful company if you ask me...
 
Valujet bought AirTran and changed their name to hide who they were. AirTran was established LCC all ready based out of MCO.
 
algflyr said:
The rest of the story? Hummm, do the mean about now Valuejet transformed into one of the leading LCC's? How they turned themselves around to become a good company? How they are one of the VERY FEW carriers to show consistant profits? They have 77 new 717's and a few 737's with close to 100 more coming. Very sucessful company if you ask me...
[post="169795"][/post]​
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No, I'm speaking of the one that put a flaming DC-9 into the Everglades a few years back. They changed the way they do things somewhat, after that incident....including a new identity......AirTran.
 
E-TRONS said:
No, I'm speaking of the one that put a flaming DC-9 into the Everglades a few years back. They changed the way they do things somewhat, after that incident....including a new identity......AirTran.
[post="169915"][/post]​
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This is a stupid point.

1. The management team at AirTran today is not the same management from the original AirTran (which was started by Mesaba, Northwest's Airlink affiliate), and it is not the same group of people who ran ValuJet. Joe Leonard, Bob Fanaro (spelling?) and crew were brought in after the Everglades crash to resurrect the airline... And all current signs indicate they have done a fantastic job.

2. US Air, with all its "in-sourcing" put down 5 airplanes in 5 years in the mid-90's. Some of those incidents were due to weather conditions at the time, but clearly, I wouldn't argue that USAir's safety record is superior. US Air also changed its identity... So what... get off it. All the ValuJet situation says is be smart about out-sourcing... Not "don't outsource"...
 
US Air, with all its "in-sourcing" put down 5 airplanes in 5 years in the mid-90's. Some of those incidents were due to weather conditions at the time, but clearly...

:down: But clearly what? Some were due to weather. Other than weather, ATC, de-icing holdover times, how many were due to "in-sourcing"? ( of maint )

The "5 crashes in 5 years" was a BS issue to smear the airline anyhow, save for its inveterate detractors. No definitive answer on 427, and external sources for the others. To call the 5 for 5 argument a cheap shot is somewhat of an understatement.

Reading your posts over the months, I gotta say I'm surprised at your last one.....

End.
 
LAX 737-300 ATC error
LGA 737-400 Pilot Error
LGA F28-400 Deicing holdover times
CLT DC9-30 ATC Not telling pilots of Windshear in the area.
PIT-737-300- Based on plane system design.

So please show me how overhauling of US Airways' planes by its mechanics played a role in any of those crashes?
 
There was a very bad string of crashes. But, ya know what, of all the airlines that has had trouble with uncontrolled landings, you should be looking over at American these days.

Other than the hijackings, they've lost at least 3 planes.

Cali 757. Little Rock MD-80. JFK A-300.

With respect to the CLT crash, NTSB did place some blame on the pilots, albeit blame that could have been reduced had the weather radar given accurate info on the wind shear. 3/4 issues raised related to the pilots.
 
Look... E-TRONS is suggesting that all out-sourcing is bad, and LCC's are bad, because 1 incident occured, based on the error of an outsourcing company.

I mearly pointed out that US Airways had had its string of problems, at least two of which (sorry, I could not remember all the details), were the fault of US Airways, despite the lack of out-sourcing.

Furthermore, E-TRONS suggests that AirTran is somehow less safe than US Airways because of this...

Both of these points are false. That is my point.

America West outsources their maintenance... And yet does not have a crash on its record.

Southwest is the king of LCC's, also has an excellent safety record.

I take exception to the idea that "out-sourced" whatever is by definition of lower quality. I think out-sourced maintenance, or anything, can be of higher or lower quality... It depends.

Furthermore, I take exception to the notion that safety is a competition. It is not, it is a standard, one which all US airlines take very seriously.

And HighIron, you are right... It was a cheap shot... I was rather irritable last night. I apologize for that. My intention was not to smear US Airways, or its employees. My point was that the in-source/out-source debate should not be measured in fatal crashes.
 
http://www.cnn.com/TRAVEL/NEWS/9807/14/america.west/

July 14, 1998
Web posted at: 10:57 p.m. EDT (0257 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Federal Aviation Administration agreed Tuesday to halve a $5 million fine it levied against America West Airlines for aircraft maintenance and operations violations.

Under the negotiated settlement, the airline will pay $2.5 million with an additional $2.5 million payment suspended if the carrier complies with the terms of the agreement, the FAA said.

"The airline understands it must meet the FAA's stringent standards, and we expect full accountability for any air carrier's failure to comply with safety regulations," said FAA Administrator Jane Garvey.

The FAA allegations included the charge that America West conducted "numerous flights of 17 Airbus A320 airplanes overdue for significant structural inspections," the agency said.

Other cases involved operating passenger and cargo flights on Boeing 737s and 757s with improperly installed cargo hold webbing, and putting a Boeing 757 back into service without required repairs to an elevator, the FAA said.

Cargo webbing keeps goods from shifting, which could cause the airline to be thrown out of balance or cause equipment damage. The elevator, located on the aircraft's tail, pitches the aircraft up and down to ascend and descend.

The FAA said the airline's "overall record of compliance with federal aviation regulations and the positive manner in which the carrier's management team responded to the allegations."

In a statement, America West, the nation's ninth largest carrier, said that it did not admit to any wrongdoing in the agreement.

"America West has one of the top safety records in the industry," said airline president Richard Goodmanson.

The problems were detected by the FAA during routine inspections beginning in December and continuing as recently as April.

"This is an example of the system working," said Thomas E. Stuckey, acting deputy director of flight standards for the FAA.

He also said the airline displayed a "cooperative attitude."

The largest fine ever issued by the FAA was $9.5 million against Eastern Airlines, also for maintenance deficiencies. That case ended with Eastern settling for closer to $1 million, said FAA spokesman Eliot Brenner.
 
Excellent point 700UW... And yet, still no fatal crash... I am not saying out-sourcing is the greatest thing ever, I am just saying fatal crashes are not the measurement...

I'll note that article is 6 years old... I believe American Airlines had a similar settlement more recently. And I have no idea what AMR outsources or not...

Airline Faces FAA Fine For Safety Violations

(See the part about other Airlines...)

"Last week, American Airlines agreed to pay $2.5 million for allegedly operating aircraft that had various safety violations and Boeing Co. agreed to pay $824,800 for allegedly failing to maintain its quality control system on its 737, 747, 767 and 777 aircraft production line. "

FAA seeks $1.2 million in penalties from American

Again, I am not trying to smear one company or another... Just simply noting that outsourcing is not inherently worse than "in-sourcing".
 
funguy2,

FWIW, I think AMR is the counter-trend leader in outsourcing with only 20%. When you consider all the components to be overhauled, that's very little.

Their reasoning is that they have better control of quality and turn times by doing as much as possible in-house.

Jim

ps - if you'd like an interesting link try:

AWST article
 
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