Cows Will Fly

[wnbubbleboy]

My guess is WN saw the market, listened to the passengers and made a business decision.

But my question would be is this service going to truly be "new" service OR will ATA be liquidating and WN will be picking up the most logical hole in the system at this time?

Here's a thought. What about merging with (Morris type Merger) ATA selling the Heavy's keeping the 800's with the extra man power and parts to support them. Picking up markets that ATA serves ie Denver and getting rid of markets say that they don't want ie Newark.

 

[SWAFA30]

Here's a thought. What about merging with (Morris type Merger) ATA selling the Heavy's keeping the 800's with the extra man power and parts to support them. Picking up markets that ATA serves ie Denver and getting rid of markets say that they don't want ie Newark.

Integrating the -800 into the fleet could be tricky. The need for an additional cabin crew member would take a toll on aircraft scheduling efficiency.

 

[JS]

Integrating the -800 into the fleet could be tricky. The need for an additional cabin crew member would take a toll on aircraft scheduling efficiency.

How is that? A 737-800 doesn't shrink to a -700 at random. Schedule four flight attendants for each -800 flight.

Yeah, I know, I've heard the arguments "But what if an -800 breaks and only a -700 is available?" Well, in an imperfect world, one can make a counter-argument against any plan, including a 100% 737-700 fleet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How is that? A 737-800 doesn't shrink to a -700 at random. Schedule four flight attendants for each -800 flight.

It's actually as easy as that in theory, but lots more complicated in practice.....

A simple illustration is the crew that brings a -700 into the layover but is scheduled to fly a -800 out the next day. There's only 3 F/A's in the crew but they need 4. So how about the 4th F/A that brought the plane in? If it was the night before, they might not have a legal rest break. If during the middle of the day, they may exceed the maximum duty time if they take it back out.

In short, easy to say but much harder to schedule. Generally, it means scheduling the 4th F/A separately and therefore less productively.

Jim

 

[corl737]

It's actually as easy as that in theory, but lots more complicated in practice.....

A simple illustration is the crew that brings a -700 into the layover but is scheduled to fly a -800 out the next day. There's only 3 F/A's in the crew but they need 4. So how about the 4th F/A that brought the plane in? If it was the night before, they might not have a legal rest break. If during the middle of the day, they may exceed the maximum duty time if they take it back out.

In short, easy to say but much harder to schedule. Generally, it means scheduling the 4th F/A separately and therefore less productively.

Jim

One solution that has been considered is creating an F/A line for one person to stay with a specific -800. If the airplane breaks and is replaced by a -700, the "800 FAs" stays with the airplane while the rest of the crew goes on. If a -700 has to be replaced by a -800 there's already a 4th FA on scene. Still some things to be worked out in this scenario but it does seem like a way to retain the flexibility currently enjoyed with only minimal inconveniences and additional expenses.

I don't know if such a position would go very senior or junior in the bidding process. Since -800s would most likely be long-haul only, the senior folks may like it. Still, being a less certain and solo position may make this go very junior, even below reserve!

I'm not an FA so I'd be interested in hearing what you think!

 

[BoeingBoy]

One solution that has been considered is creating an F/A line for one person to stay with a specific -800.

That's exactly what US did in the "interim" between the days of an extra F/A (above FAA minimum) on nearly all flights and the current minimum on almost all flights - put an extra on for meal service or heavily booked flights. The advantage US had over what WN would need is that the extra would be an extra on whatever airplane was on the flight, since the F/A's are qualified on all the planes while WN would only need the 4th F/A on the 800.

It can certainly be done, but it's a little more complicated than it seems. For example, suppose the only 800 flights at a city are the first out in the morning and last in at night and there's not long enough to give a legal rest. The 4th either that brought the plane in at night has to either D/H out the next day, be a 4th on a 700, or lay over all day and another night before working an 800 out.

The US experience was that the "extra" F/A schedules weren't as efficient.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

If WN finds itself in possession of any 738s, you can be certain that those airplanes would quickly be configured for 150 seats before WN would schedule a fourth FA. 25 rows of coach would resemble UA's E+, only with a little more legroom.

 

[ngneer]

Here are the Denver flights:

Press Release Source: Southwest Airlines

Southwest Airlines Unveils Destinations and Fares From Denver International Airport
Thursday October 27, 1:00 pm ET

DENVER, Oct. 27 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV - News) is kicking off 2006 in the Mile High City! The airline today unveiled its low fares and flight schedule to and from Denver. Customers can now purchase tickets for the new service with airfares beginning as low as $59 one-way -- or sometimes even lower for subscribers to Southwest's E-mail Click 'n Save specials or users of Southwest's downloaded DING! software program.

Southwest Airlines will begin its Denver service Jan. 3, 2006, with a total of 13 daily nonstop departures to the following cities: Chicago Midway (the downtown airport) (four daily), Las Vegas (five daily), and Phoenix (four daily). The airline will offer direct or connecting service to 36 other destinations, such as Baltimore/Washington, Ft. Lauderdale/Hollywood, Seattle/Tacoma, and Pittsburgh. Southwest will occupy two gates in the C Concourse and will initially have about 40 local Employees.

"These destinations are just the beginning for Southwest in Denver; we look forward to growing with the demand here," said Gary Kelly, Southwest's Chief Executive Officer. "Denver is a market that has been a significant gap in Southwest's system for many years; and we can now connect Denver Customers into our coast-to-coast operations."

Southwest Airlines offers Denver Customers its biggest discounts with its advance purchase tickets. For example, Customers can head to Chicago Midway for as little as $79 one-way with Southwest Airlines' 21-day advance purchase fares. Additionally, advance purchase fares start as low as $59 one-way to Las Vegas and Phoenix. To take advantage of these low fares, see http://www.southwest.com/jp/luvhome.shtml?...R_DenSch_102705

"Southwest Airlines enters the Denver market as the low fare and Customer satisfaction leader, and we are bringing our most valuable asset, our hospitable and caring Employees -- the best in the industry," Kelly said. "But we are not only here as the low air fare provider. We're also here to become an active and contributory member of this vibrant community."

Southwest Airlines announced its flights and fares today during a media conference at Denver International Airport. Kelly was accompanied by Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper, and DIA Co-Managers Turner West and Vicki Braunagel; some Southwest pilots also attended the event to show their support for Southwest's newest city.

The airline with the most affordable airfares also makes travel a whole lot easier. Southwest Airlines' award winning web site, http://www.southwest.com , not only offers some of the industry's lowest airfares online but also helps with making other travel accommodations, such as hotel and rental cars. Customers with an electronic "Ticketless" reservation may checkin online and print a boarding pass 24 hours in advance of travel from the airline's web site, southwest.com . Boarding passes are issued on a first-come, first-served basis, and Southwest boards its flights in three boarding groups. Instead of looking for seat assignments, Customers can choose their own seats once onboard the flight, allowing for a quicker boarding process -- and ontime flights.

To take advantage of Southwest Airlines' super low fares, Customers who book their travel via the Internet can subscribe to Southwest Airlines Click 'n Save e-mail updates as well as Southwest Airlines' newest technological innovation-DING! DING! delivers Southwest Airlines' hottest deals directly to Customers' desktops allowing Customers to get a jump on the latest southwest.com sales! For more information, visit http://www.southwest.com .

Fare rules: Tickets for $59 and $79 fares must be purchased at least 21 days before departure. Fares are valid for travel beginning Jan. 3, 2006, through the end of the published schedule (currently March 31, 2006). Fares are available one-way and are combinable with all other fares. When combining fares, all ticketing restrictions apply. Seats are limited. Advertised fares may vary by flight and day of week and will not be available on some flights that operate during very busy travel times. Fares do not include a $3.20 federal segment tax per takeoff and landing; airport-assessed passenger facility charges (PFC) of up to $9 one-way; and U.S. government-imposed September 11th Security Fees of up to $5 one-way. Fares are subject to change until ticketed. Tickets are nonrefundable but may be applied toward the purchase of future travel on Southwest Airlines. Fares are valid on Southwest-operated published, scheduled service only and are not available through the Group Desk. Any change in itinerary could result in an increase in fare, depending upon whether discount seats are still available on the new flights.

Southwest Airlines is the number one airline in terms of domestic boardings. With the addition of its Denver service, Southwest Airlines will operate more than 2,980 daily flights to 62 cities in 32 states. Southwest Airlines employs more than 31,000 people nationwide.

http://www.southwest.com

 

[IORFA]

With ATA cancelling service out of DEN to MDW and PHX, these flights just got some added revenue.

 

[scuba]

I know I asked if this "new" WN service was a replacement for ATA. I guess I was right and my assumption is that WN had the information before hand. Nobody invests in a BK airline, (25%) without having some insight into the books. It is called due diligence. If WN did not have this type of 'inside information' and they invested into a company and lost the money, (three issues Due Diligence, Invest in Company, Loss of Money) then the stockholders would have a great lawsuit against the company.

When I worked at UA as a low level, front line employee, I could find out how many seats UA sold on US from XYZ to ZYX. I could then look up each e-ticket and figure the revenue. So, my guess is that WN would have a minimum that ability as well. After all when you interline (code-share) you have access to some financial information, you know what you sold on any given flight, or to any given market. When you invest you have more, when you become a DIP financer you have even more.

Also, I don't think WN would ever do anything to loose money on purpose. It is not in their nature.