WN to expand Denver

[SharoninSAT]

For those of you who don't live in Denver, you probably have very little idea just how successful Frontier has been at branding themselves here. The people of Colorado see Frontier as their "hometown" carrier, and they are fiercely loyal to that. I don't think the management at Southwest even has a clue. A few poster-ads hanging around DIA isn't going make a dent in anything. Most people in Denver still don't even know WN flies there, when F9 has been their preferred option for so long. Perhaps WN's management will finally "get" the picture when their "growth" at DEN nets them diddly-squat.

All things being equal, the people of Denver will choose Frontier, hands down. Should be interesting to see Southwest's reaction in a situation where they are definitely NOT the favored son, for a change.

Frontier is a good airline. I've flown them a couple of times from Aus to Den.
A friend and co-worker just recently transferred from Sat to Den and e-mailed me that everyday the SW lines at the counter are out the door from 430a to 6p when it finally slows down a bit. They're extremely busy and continue to hire. It sounds to me like we are doing pretty good in Den.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

Frontier is a good airline. I've flown them a couple of times from Aus to Den.
A friend and co-worker just recently transferred from Sat to Den and e-mailed me that everyday the SW lines at the counter are out the door from 430a to 6p when it finally slows down a bit. They're extremely busy and continue to hire. It sounds to me like we are doing pretty good in Den.

Well, not to anecdotally rebuke you or anything, but... every time I've non-revved on WN (MCI-DEN) it's been great for me, cuz they've been 65% full or less...

One time, I was on the plane with 16 other people... woah, baby.

 

[KCFlyer]

Well, not to anecdotally rebuke you or anything, but... every time I've non-revved on WN (MCI-DEN) it's been great for me, cuz they've been 65% full or less...

One time, I was on the plane with 16 other people... woah, baby.

Ad...I was on a plane from OAK to MCI that had maybe 25 people on it. But apparently there are other flights on other days that are pretty full. One thing Southwest doesn't do is keep running unprofitable flights. Just a little anecdotal evidence here, but checking the DEN-MCI flights tomorrow, 3 of the 4 flights show sold out. For MCI-DEN tomorrow - they show ZERO availabilty...all 4 flights (even business select) show "unavailable". Same thing for DEN-LAX (seven flights) and DEN-OAK(8 possible flights)...no fare levels show as available.

 

[LoneStarMike]

All things being equal, the people of Denver will choose Frontier, hands down. Should be interesting to see Southwest's reaction in a situation where they are definitely NOT the favored son, for a change.

Frontier may be the hometown carrier in Denver, but they're not the hometown carrier in the other cities and people who live in those other cities who need to fly to DEN may switch to WN.

 

[BuffaloJoe]

Frontier may be the hometown carrier in Denver, but they're not the hometown carrier in the other cities and people who live in those other cities who need to fly to DEN may switch to WN.

Why would anybody want to fly WN over F9? F9 has the best to offer, DirecTV! I do like my DirecTV. But also leads to the intrigue of which animal your gonna fly on. Its the quirky stuff that draws people sometimes.

 

[mga707]

Why would anybody want to fly WN over F9? F9 has the best to offer, DirecTV! I do like my DirecTV.

See, that's why everyone's different. If I'm ever on a plane with DirecTV, whatever that is, I'd probably never bother to even turn it on to check it out. I just don't care about it at all.

 

[KCFlyer]

Why would anybody want to fly WN over F9? F9 has the best to offer, DirecTV! I do like my DirecTV. But also leads to the intrigue of which animal your gonna fly on. Its the quirky stuff that draws people sometimes.

Well....here's one...my brother in COS flies United over Frontier. One, he doesn't care about TV on the plane, and second, he doesn't like Airbus - and on UAL he can pick flights that operate Boeings. As for me, I have my I-pod for music and a book. Provides hours of entertainment. I have over 150 channels on cable, and find that there is little to watch.

 

[LoneStarMike]

Why would anybody want to fly WN over F9?

Because people who DON'T live in DEN are more likely to be loyal to WN because WN is bigger in ALL the other cities where they compete with F9.

I'll use my home airport (AUS) as an example. WN accounts for about 35% of all passengers in and out of AUS, while F9 accounts for less than 3%. Most of my travel is between AUS and DAL, where F9 is not a viable option. Prior to 2006, if I HAD needed to go to DEN, I most likely WOULD have chosen Frontier because WN wouldn't have been an option for me.

But now that WN flies AUS-DEN, I would probably just stick with WN because I'm a Rapids Rewards member and not an Early Returns Member (or whatever Frontier calls their FF program.)

 

[FlyStorms]

Before the Wright Amendement was tweaked, I used F9 when I could to get places. At Christmas one year, it was about $200 cheaper to fly F9 from DFW to SAN than it was to take AA there. That said, I also got better service and friendlier people. It was worth the extra time to save the money and fly on an airline that gave a rip about their pax. Now that we have the ability to fly out of DAL to other cities all over the system, I'll obviously use WN when possible.

F9 is a scrappy little airline. They've carried their brand well and are just downright enjoyable! Great work!

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

If I'm ever on a plane with DirecTV, whatever that is,

Are you trying to say you've never even heard of DirecTV before? I'm not trying to be snarky, just incredulous.

I'd probably never bother to even turn it on to check it out. I just don't care about it at all.

So, you don't watch any TV? I can understand that. I know quite a few people (my brother among them) who don't watch TV at all (no cable). However, I also know quite a few Rockies fans who were thrilled to be able to watch the World Series during their flights, as well as any other live sporting event. Other people appreciate being able to get live news from CNN. As for me, if Deal or No Deal is on, I'll watch. Not to mention from a cabin crew standpoint, it's a godsend for the pax. Sublimates them as well as spares the F/A's from having to put on some kind of irritating song and dance routine replete with those same worn-out safety jokes, á-la Southwest Airlines.

I can understand people not watching TV. I'm just not sure that you don't.

Well....here's one...my brother in COS flies United over Frontier. One, he doesn't care about TV on the plane, and second, he doesn't like Airbus - and on UAL he can pick flights that operate Boeings.

Now that is easily the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. First, because UAL is a huge Airbus customer, too...so there's no guarantees there. Second, it's not as if he is flying the plane! Airbus narrowbodies actually are wider and more comfortable from a passenger's standpoint. Especially in coach. You've said yourself before how much difference an extra inch can make. On long haul flights, sure, I book Boeing widebodies over Airbus for obvious speed and comfort reasons. But unless he is attempting to make some sort of "Buy American" political statement, I'm not seeing his reasoning.

If its safety and reliability, he should know that United's and Frontier's Airbuses are a lot newer than United's 73's.

 

[ELP_WN_Psgr]

Just a few quick comments...mainly for AdAstra to review and ponder....

A lot of folks have made comments about how Southwest is not making any money in Philadelphia....or at Dulles....or in Denver. Some have said that Southwest's results at these new station expansions as "disappointing."

That may or may not be true. But one fact remains: They made a profit.

So if these stations were disappointing, then the other stations must really be performing well.

The truth is Denver is doing okay for Southwest. Nothing to complain about. I rode DAL-MCI-DEN a couple of months back and DAL-AMA-DEN and DEN-OKC-DAL just this past week.

On each flight we had 42 thrus to Denver and back to Dallas. Amarillo put on 76 locals AMA-DEN on a Sunday afternoon. Denver put on 48 locals DEN-OKC at 8:05 am on a Saturday morning.

You may think Frontier has a better product than Southwest, but some of us think Southwest's product is pretty good, too. The fact that I can book a cheap fare for a business trip in advance.....and when (not if) circumstances change....that I can use the whole face falue of my ticket for up to a year with no change fee or penalty is pretty outstanding.

Southwest is fixing to test inflight broadband. If it works, and when they equip the fleet with it, it is going to make Southwest a pretty desirable ride. I'd much rather be able to e mail or surf the net on my laptop than watch TV. Heck, a common complaint in my household is that we have 257 channels and there's nothing on worth watching.

The wireless broadband has a heck of an advantage over TVs wired in each seatback....mainly....a whole lot less wiring. And if someone's laptop breaks, it's a lick on them. If the TV in someone's seat back goes on the blink, and it's a full flight....then you have people squalling about no TV.

The maintenance advantages of not having to have miles and miles of wiring in each plane is worth a lot.

As far as the Boeing vs Airbus deal.....a lot of us who know and talk to aircraft mechanics (I have a good friend at NW) will readily admit that the Airbus is, for lack of a better way to put it - a disposable plane. The Boeing is built like a battleship and last a long time. Southwest has some -300s that have been flying for close to 25 yrs. At age 25 most of the Airbuses you run across will be in pieces in Victorville or Mojave.

But back to the bottom line. Making a profit and having 2.2 Billion dollars in the bank and having roughly 75% of your fuel hedged at $51 a barrel allows Southwest to make a few bucks at load factors that would have Frontier hemorrhaging money...employee wage scales notwithstanding.

Maybe it's like McDonald's. They lose money on every hamburger they sell but they make up for it in volume. Perhaps Southwest loses a little money on each passenger they carry in and out of Denver, but they make up for it in volume.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

ELP: All your points are good. And just so I'm clear, I'm not trying to disparage WN. I think they're a fine airline.

What I do dispute is airlines like WN going for the jugular and trying to kill others. WN complained about this practice when it was leveled against them. Now it seems the tables have turned and the weakling has now turned into the big bully.

I don't think DEN is a big enough market for UA, F9 and WN. It will bleed everyone, until someone blinks first. And do you know who it will be? Hint: Not the two Goliath airlines.

And whose livelihood will be taken down the drain? Hint: Not yours.

 

[KCFlyer]

Now that is easily the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. First, because UAL is a huge Airbus customer, too...so there's no guarantees there. Second, it's not as if he is flying the plane! Airbus narrowbodies actually are wider and more comfortable from a passenger's standpoint. Especially in coach. You've said yourself before how much difference an extra inch can make. On long haul flights, sure, I book Boeing widebodies over Airbus for obvious speed and comfort reasons. But unless he is attempting to make some sort of "Buy American" political statement, I'm not seeing his reasoning.

His reasoning is this - He feels more secure on a 757 that an Airbus. It's not "buy American" - a takeoff in a 757 is much more "reassuring" than in an Airbus - especially an Airbus on a longer haul. They may be fine aircraft, but when you can watch a 757 be at 300 ft when a similarly loaded Airbus is just getting off the runway - it's comforting.

 

[AdAstraPerAspera]

I can't disagree with that. A 757 is something of a Ferrari.

Does he see an advantage of a 737 vs. a 319?

 

[BuffaloJoe]

I can't disagree with that. A 757 is something of a Ferrari.

Does he see an advantage of a 737 vs. a 319?

757 reminds me of a rocket, they can climb. I flew a AA 757 a few years ago, from SJC-ORD. At SJC you must loop to get altitude to go over SFO/OAK arrival approaches. We took off and climbed so fast we didn't need to do the famous SJC circle. I always think of the Jimi Hendrix's song Purple Haze, "Excuse Me, While I'll Kiss the Sky".